Question on Values Options

[BPic]

I have been stalking in here for months and I'm amazed by the information exchange here. I just purchased a 72 1.7 that I will be rebuilding. The discussion I would open is this: In looking at a full rebuild of the car above will the car be more valuable brought back to factory spec 100% original or set up with a bigger engine, say a 2.0 and slightly modified.
Not that I'm rebuilding this to sell right away. But, I always have an exit strategy with an investment like this and would like to get an idea of which route to go.
I'm sure I'll be posting a lot of questions here and I've already cataloged several posts with tips and pics of some of my questions thus far.

Any input will be greatly appreciated!

[914Sixer]

Any money to be made would only be secondary to the journey.

[simonjb]

A car is not an investment - at least in my view. Its an enjoyable (most of the time) hobby for most of us.

[BeatNavy]

I agree that a car is not investment, but I also agree that's not a bad idea to have an "exit strategy" when you start something (I rarely do (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) ).

There is a market for both -- brought back to 100% original or something with more power. Whatever direction, the big caveat is to do it well.

In terms of mods, if your primary option is to put a 2.0, or modified 2.0, in place of the 1.7 that's hardly "crazy" in terms of non-original, particularly if you keep the numbers matching original case to sell with the car later.

[Mike Fitton]

Only 2 ways to go in my opinion:
-Rebuild back to 100% original.
-Do a 6/GT conversion, these are really hot right now.

These cars are investments now whether we like it or not. If you bought 10 years ago you have 3 or 4 x's your initial outlay.

[mepstein]

A full restoration can have you upside down a couple times the value of the car. Especially if you hire it all out.

[EdwardBlume]

Best investment is to drive it.

Your pile of riches can grow in other ways.

[iankarr]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/welcome.png)

Ah, the age old question. Second only maybe to "what tires are best?" and "what oil should I use?" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

If your exit strategy is about time as well as money, I believe the closer a car is to stock, the easier it will be to sell. There are probably more buyers for a nice 1.8 restored to factory spec than there are for V8 outlaws. Putting a period-correct 2.0 in there, or modding to 2056 is a nice upgrade that most people like, provided it's done correctly and you don't break the bank doing it.

SO much of the exit strategy depends on the entry. You can easily put 10-15K into these cars in rust repair and paint alone. The very top end of the (realistically driveable) market currently appears to be about 25K...so back out your restoration costs from there and figure out the "enjoyment lease payment" you're comfortable with. That is, the annual money you wouldn't mind "losing" because you've got a great car and a fun hobby. I know some guys who spend 25K a year on playing golf (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif).

Regardless, welcome to the addiction! Great bunch of guys here who know so much about these cars its scary. Enjoy!

[bbrock]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/welcome.png) and (IMG:style_emoticons/default/thisthreadisworthlesswithoutpics.gif)

I'm just over 10 months into my restoration project and have thought about this a lot, and asked a related question early on. I was told it couldn't be done, but I believe I'm still on track to finish this project in the black. In reality, if my car is worth 90% of what I put into it, I'll be very happy. My car required extensive rust repair but this was offset by the fact it is a 73 2.0L that I bought back in the 1980s for practically nothing ($500). It had some significant rust issues even then but was complete and drove well after a quicky hell hole patch. The low initial investment combined with it being one of the most desirable four cylinder models helps with the return on investment of my project. I haven't tallied receipts yet, but I am 95% finished with the rust/chassis repair and am well below $10K invested, including the numerous tools I've purchased that would have been bought eventually anyway. Lessons so far:

1. Stick with original. Not only is this, by far, the cheapest way to restore a car, they also net top value. Modifying the engine within reason doesn't seem to affect value but might add to the expense and affect net. Keep the EFI though.

2. Do the work yourself. I've penciled this out and don't see how you can break even on a major four cylinder restoration by hiring out the work. A major rustoration like mine requires a broad set of skills to be mastered to be successful: welding, metal fabrication, metal bumping, stripping, painting, upholstery, etc. The jury is still out on mine. But any job hired out really bites into the budget. And no, you don't count your own time. That's ridiculous. It's a hobby, so you shouldn't count the value of your time anymore than you charge yourself for fishing or watching football.

3. IMHO, this is the golden age of 914 restoration. This forum alone, is a goldmine of information provides a resource base that wasn't available decades ago. Plus, enough people have done major restorations that much of what works has been figured out. Had I completed my restoration in the 80s when I started it, the result would have been crap compared to where it is now. Also, there are a lot of enthusiasts making excellent reproduction parts at a very reasonable price and there are still a lot of salvage parts available. Finally, I do believe the value of these cars taking off and I doubt the entry point for a restoration will be nearly as affordable in 5-10 years as it is now. I've had a few interesting conversations with people who follow collectible car trends but are not 914 or Porsche people recently. They are aware that 914s have gained a following and are going up in value. Ten years ago, those same people would have snickered at the mention of a 914 and said something about it being a Volkswagen or NARP. I'm guessing that even projects that go slightly upside down on investment may turn right side up during the years we enjoy owning and driving the cars.

Good luck!

[Larmo63]

I agree with Mike:

"Only 2 ways to go in my opinion:
-Rebuild back to 100% original.
-Do a 6/GT conversion, these are really hot right now.

These cars are investments now whether we like it or not. If you bought 10 years ago you have 3 or 4 x's your initial outlay."

Whatever you do, do it tastefully. So many people do hack jobs on 914s and some "modifications" are complete deal killers.

To each his own, but beware there is a lot of questionable stuff out there as far as 914 builds. Do it right.

[Mueller]

Or you could be like Mike, I have zero intentions of "restoring" my car to it's original glory.

As long as I don't totally FUBAR it with modifications I feel I can always break even on my initial purchase price and some of the upgrades as well.

One has to be realistic, if you start off with a $5000 car and then spent $1000 on all newly refurbished brake calipers and new rotors do you now have a $6000 car even if you never put a single mile on it? I would say no.

[JOEPROPER]

I see it as a hobby. Like most hobbies, it cost money that is never recouped. You can go skiing, hiking, traveling, hunting or fishing and never recoup any of the money spent, or you can rebuild a car and have a tangible finished product at the end that you can enjoy for a long time or sell and get something for it. $$

Like most people, I don't do my hobbies for the money, but for the experience and the satisfaction of having the finished product, not to mention all the great people that you will come across on the journey. Try to set a reasonable budget and enjoy the ride.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/welcome.png) Your in the right place.

[914_teener]

How many Angels can dance on the head of a pin?

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[malcolm2]

It goes back to you.... Why did you buy the car?

I bought mine for 3 reasons.
1. to enjoy the time working and learning about the car. Not to pay someone else to do it.
2. to drive the car. Both are on going.
3. cause I wanted an aircooled powered, top off, fun to drive car.

Took me 2 years, maybe 28 months to start the engine and drive the car down my street.... no doors, no hoods, no gauges, 1 seat. I upped my 1.8 liter to 96mm cylinders and 1911cc with heads bored to 2 liter size valves. and did lots of hidden welding and patching.

Since then I continue to fix little things that pop up. Alt crapped out last Saturday..... and I have put over 40K miles on the car in 3 years.

Why did you buy the car?

[theer]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/welcome.png)

Welcome to the madness. These cars are fantastic.

But buying 914-4 needing restoration as an investment is probably not the right approach. Well, that's true of almost any car in this price range. Most major resto/conversion projects are underwater by the time they are done. Even if you do the ALL the work yourself, the parts do add up quickly, and you might just barely break even. If you have to hire-out the work, such as welding, body work, paint, engine build, you'll soon be deeper in the hole (I'm mixing metaphors, but you get the idea). LE's are possibly an exception and to a lesser degree '73 and on 2.0l's, as are any year unrestored low mileage originals in pretty much any configuration - but that's not what we have here.

I'm thirty years into owning my '72 (1.7l bumped to 1.9l) and probably just now approaching breakeven or "maybe" up a couple thousand (as is: two or three). But that's not why I bought it all those years ago. It's ridiculously fun to drive, relatively cheap to own, easy to work on, pretty rare & quirky (which works for me), worth more today than yesterday, but not worth so much that you'd panic taking it out everyday for a drive when the weather is nice (or not nice, for that matter).

Fix it. Drive it. Sell it later. Maybe you'll make money, maybe not.

My opinion, based on my experience. Your mileage may vary.

[Dave_Darling]

If the 914 goes the way of most collectable cars, all-stock matching-numbers cars will tend to fetch top dollar. Modified ones usually do not do as well.

The 914 did not follow that trend for a long time, but it seems like things are starting to go that way now.

In general, 914s are not good "investments". Even if you bought your car 24 years ago and it is worth 3 or 4 times what you paid for it, maintenance costs over that long will add up. And if you have had any major problems, you have probably put more into the car than you can sell it for. (There are reasons I don't add up the receipts!) So there is something to be said for just building something you would enjoy, and let the resale be what it is.

I've always said that resale only counts if you ever plan to sell the car. I don't.


Another option for you might be to put the original engine on a shelf, and get another motor to build up into something you'd enjoy more. (Assuming you would enjoy a "built" motor more.)

--DD

[BPic]

Thank you everyone for the input. I guess "investment" was a poor choice of words. However I do think it will be an investment just not a profitable one. With exception of the fun factor. However taking everyone's responses into consideration, I think my best bet to build it all original and try to keep the costs under control.
I will be doing most of the work myself with exception of some detailed body work and paint. I'll post some pics as I get started.

Thanks again -

[Shadowfax]

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Good luck with your project!