Engine build Options

[sjhenry1075]

If you were to choose, would you build a 2056 or 1911?

[Cairo94507]

2056 all day long with the factory injection. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[Bleyseng]

2056 all day long with the factory injection. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

With Raby cam to get in the 115-120HP range!

[mbseto]

1911 if you are starting with an engine that has a strong bottom end and you don't want to split the case. It seems like a great bang for the buck, you can get its full potential without upgrading the FI.

2056 if you aren't worried about a full teardown and can spend on whatever case machining is necessary. Full potential comes with well tuned fuel delivery.

If you're really interested in what I personally am planning, I'm putting the 1.7 back in while I build a 1911 with a spare case/crank that I have, then I'll swap them and start building the original 1.7 into a 2056 and swap again when that's done.

[sjhenry1075]

Here’s my situation. I have an original 1.7 in my 71 with roughly 55k. Since I got it running, I’ve wanted to build a larger engine but couldn’t decide between a 1911 or 2056.

Just recently I acquired a 2.0 case with crank & rods and a set of 1.8 heads so I’m definitely leaning towards a 2056. For those who have gone this way, did you keep the 1.8 valves stock? The heads?

How difficult is it to keep the factory D-jet on a 2056 and how much power will it produce? Is it that much different than carbs & cam?

[sjhenry1075]

2056 all day long with the factory injection. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

With Raby cam to get in the 115-120HP range!

A 2056 with a bigger cam and the original Djet? Is this possible? I thought the Djet didn't work with more aggressive cams?

[JOEPROPER]

I have a 2056 with 96mm KB pistons and Webcam 73 and it runs pretty strong. I used stock 2.0 cylinder heads that i may change... Yes original D-Jet.

[Bleyseng]

2056 all day long with the factory injection. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

With Raby cam to get in the 115-120HP range!

A 2056 with a bigger cam and the original Djet? Is this possible? I thought the Djet didn't work with more aggressive cams?

I have been running a Raby cam in my 2056 Djet engine since what? 2005 when Jake came out with the 9550 cams. Yes, you have to tune the MPS with a wideband to your engine. I recently installed new 2.0L heads from Len with 44x38 valves that really woke up the engine.

[mbseto]

1911 vs 2056

[1911] 96mm pistons, 66m crank stroke (i.e. 1.7L stock crank)
[2056] 96mm pistons, 71mm crank stroke (i.e. 2.0L stock crank)

@McMark has dyno plots on his site for the two units.
1911 is a bit below 100HP
2056 is closer to 125hp.


http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s=&...t&p=2769350
1911 can be a great engine making similar power to a 2056, slightly more peaky torque curve, slightly more rev happy.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s=&...t&p=2862651
A 914 with a 1911 engine should SCOOT! Even a mild 1911 should make 110-115HP. It should be more rev-happy then a 2056, but should still have a better bottom end power then a stock motor. It should be more then acceptable for the driving you are describing.
If you just crack open the case and change the crank to a 2.0 crank (and that's all you need to do to get the engine to a 2056 in terms of displacement) you're going to be unhappy that the results are not that different then the 1911. For a basic build, the difference in power between the 2 engines is less then 10HP. Unless your engine is actually worn out, I suspect your issues are carb tuning and can be fixed without a rebuild. The 44IDF carbs you are using are way too big for it and will push all the power into the top end of the engine.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s=&...showtopic=42891
Easily as quick as a 2.0 six.
Fantastic bottom end.
A 1911 is a torquey mofo. According to the dyno graphs for my engines, the 1911 (with carbs) is nearly identical to a stock 2.0, but has better low end torque and better top end. Good stuff. ...The 1911 I'm looking at makes more torque down low because of the cam. Basically, I say, expect a 1911 to be nearly identical to a stock 2.0. Especially if you use stock D-Jet.
they jam with 2L heads

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s=&...st&p=560281
[1911] dyno graph

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s=&...t&p=2789506
[2056] The real HP in a 2056 comes from the 2.0L heads.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s=&...t&p=2789839
[2056] 2056 w/stock FI cam=95hp. 2056 w/Raby 9950 cam =120hp , both with Djet FI

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s=&...t&p=2768017
As Superhawk says - a 2056cc with a external oil cooler, Raby 9590 cam & lifters, HAM setup AA 2.0L heads with internal coatings and stock Djet FI or Ljet FI, SSI exchangers and a Triad or Bursch exhaust. 115 to 120HP and runs cooler.


Technical

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s=&...t&p=2841680
[1911] From the research I did 8.5:1 is a safe and reasonable compression.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=347037
[1911] Deck height, CR discussion.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s=&...t&p=2789510
I had my 2L case line bored by John Slack in Olympia Wa. ...He rebuilds Rolls Royce aircraft engines and I was very impressed with his tooling. ... He goes by "Jesco Reient" here

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s=&...t&p=1529209
Very detailled Raby article on converting 1.7 or 1.8 to a big bore.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s=&...t&p=2789590
[2056] [BeatNavy] I built a 2056 from a 1.7L last year. I didn't go "exotic," but I also didn't cut any corners. I spent over $5K in parts and services, including (biggest ticket items):
1. Brand new 2.0 AA (ceramic coated) heads built by Len Hoffman: $1700
2. Raby 9950 Cam kit: $950
3. P&C: roughly $500 (my records are screwed up here because I swapped from valve relief JE to flat top KB at the end, and I don't seem to have cost on the KB pistons)
4. 2.0 H beam connection rods: $300
5. 71mm crankshaft $300
6. New pushrod tubes: $100
7. Case machining, flywheel resurfacing, parts balancing, etc. $400
8. Rocker machining and miscellaneous tools, shims, etc.: $250

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s=&...t&p=2768752
[2056][VaccaRabite] When I did my motor (2056) it started as a 1.7L case and 1.7L heads, a 2.0 crank, Stock Mahle 2.0 cylinders that I had punched out to 96mm, KB flattop 96mm pistons. At the time, that was the proven recipe.

The case needed to have the registers opened up a little, and needed to have the registers flattened out (the case was a bus case, and the registers had started collapsing...) The heads needed significant work to flow the air I was sucking and pushing. I did not change spark locations.

When I built the engine the first time built did not last long. I flat out did not know what the hell I was doing and did a lot of stuff wrong. It ran way too hot and did not make enough oil pressure. Learn by doing I suppose. I tore the engine down before it did that part for me, and was able to reuse a lot of my parts.

When I rebuilt it I added a LOT of valve train goodies, and lowered my static CR from 9.2:1 to 8.7:1, spent a lot of time on my oiling system blueprinting the pump and adding an oil cooler under the rear trunk, and went from carbs to $Microsquirt$.

I'm still in the proving stage of my current engine, and have only taken it on runs about 2 hours long and within the radius of my AAA towing range. That said, I have yet to see a head temp above 360 - even when climbing long Appalachian hills in 5th gear at 80+mph. It just eats it up! It has maybe 2000 miles this summer (Odo on my car has never worked) and has worked really well in various conditions (including a 50 mile run in pouring rain that cropped up one day). My car as a whole has issues (mostly electrical in nature - I think the wipers are pulling WAY too much current when I have to use them) but the engine has run very very well.

My engine is also pushing 150hp at the crank, dyno proven. (127 at the wheels during initial tuning). That is well above average for a 2056 (the standard for a 2056 is 120 at the crank, and I'm making more then that at the wheels).

As to money... I bought the engine as a "running" 2056 for $2K. This engine was supposed to be a drop in my car and go deal. Yeah no... Had to totally rebuild it, but it had great parts. Ceramic lifters? Yes please!

Then (as I said) rebuilt it again a year later learning from my rookie mistakes. Lots of head work. $2K in heads alone from a local guy. $3K for the Microsquirt setup. $2K in tuning. Oh, and the actual parts I had to buy, lets call that $2K. So lets call it $11K (including tuning and all the other stuff - not just the engine) for a good 150hp T4 small bore engine that I never have to rev above 5K. The upside is that I spent this money in little chunks over several years and even got to drive the car a little between chunks as the engine evolved - but still.

If I was doing it again.... First off I'd buy NEW heads from Len. Its frustrating but I KNOW I'm leaving power on the table with my heads. And I know his heads will run longer then my old ones will. At the time I could not afford his work, and I HATED knowing that I was going to be running a compromise instead of the best heads I could get.

And if I was starting from scratch - I'd be looking long and hard at a subaru conversion OR make a stock engine with stock EFI and spend the money needed to get it right (which will still be $5K+ easy, with roughly 1/2 the power).

My engine has been a journey, and I've spent more time and money on the engine then I did restoring the entire rest of the car.

Zach


Fuel delivery:

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s=&...t&p=2730453
It seems the community has gone from:

1. Put carbs on - Early years when old schools couldn't figure out the FI
2. Don't put carbs on - Mid years when shade-trees dug in and became more knowledgeable than most old schools on FI systems. Parts were plentiful. They were/are correct.
3. Here and now...

Here & Now, harnesses are brittle, good parts are getting harder to find and, a good FI system requires a knowledgeable tech trained in the art of 50 year old FI systems. My take is, if your system is stock and you have all of the components, it may be worth a shot at saving it. That said, you can easily spend thou$and$ with MPS rebuild, TPS Rebuilds, leaks and bad wiring (a $500.00 harness from Jeff B. would be an EXTREMELY wise investment).

I guess my point is, I feel carbs can be a viable alternative as we are beginning to run out of stock FI resources. Good parts are just getting harder and harder to find and, it's an old system. ***They (carbs) will make less power when run on FI cams*** As you move forward plan on a motor rebuild with a substantial cam to take advantage of all that carbs can offer.

If you're considering an engine rebuild, I would go 2258 with the new stroker cranks out there and run either carbs or EFI the likes of The Dub Shop's Type 4 MicroSquirt system. An EFI system on a motor like that will change your world.

[TargaToy]

2056 all day long with the factory injection. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

With Raby cam to get in the 115-120HP range!

A 2056 with a bigger cam and the original Djet? Is this possible? I thought the Djet didn't work with more aggressive cams?

I have been running a Raby cam in my 2056 Djet engine since what? 2005 when Jake came out with the 9550 cams. Yes, you have to tune the MPS with a wideband to your engine. I recently installed new 2.0L heads from Len with 44x38 valves that really woke up the engine.

Geoff, are you using a tweaked 1.7 or 2.0 D-jet system? I think that info would be helpful for the OP.

I'm almost 100% sure Raby designed a cam that will improve performance and still work with D-jet.

[Frank S]

[/quote]
I recently installed new 2.0L heads from Len with 44x38 valves that really woke up the engine.
[/quote]

Are the larger valves a huge improvement?
Is the drivability still good?

[Bleyseng]

Drives great but just has more hp in the higher rpms. Idles at 1000 steady when warm

[BeatNavy]

2056 all day long with the factory injection. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

With Raby cam to get in the 115-120HP range!

A 2056 with a bigger cam and the original Djet? Is this possible? I thought the Djet didn't work with more aggressive cams?

I have been running a Raby cam in my 2056 Djet engine since what? 2005 when Jake came out with the 9550 cams. Yes, you have to tune the MPS with a wideband to your engine. I recently installed new 2.0L heads from Len with 44x38 valves that really woke up the engine.

I'm almost 100% sure Raby designed a cam that will improve performance and still work with D-jet.

He did. Here's the listing from the camshaft kit page on the Type 4 Store:

9590 – Camper special kits and the Porsche 2056-120 kit. This is the only camshaft that works with stock FI, but it will also work with carbs.

I can never remember what to call it (9550, 9950, etc.), but that's the one that works with stock FI.

[Bleyseng]

Mine is the early version a 9550 cam and the newest version is a 9590 for 914 2056 engines. With bigger valves (44x38) -it just doesn't run out of air in the higher rpms (5000-6500)

[Bleyseng]

2056 all day long with the factory injection. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

With Raby cam to get in the 115-120HP range!

A 2056 with a bigger cam and the original Djet? Is this possible? I thought the Djet didn't work with more aggressive cams?

I have been running a Raby cam in my 2056 Djet engine since what? 2005 when Jake came out with the 9550 cams. Yes, you have to tune the MPS with a wideband to your engine. I recently installed new 2.0L heads from Len with 44x38 valves that really woke up the engine.

Geoff, are you using a tweaked 1.7 or 2.0 D-jet system? I think that info would be helpful for the OP.

I'm almost 100% sure Raby designed a cam that will improve performance and still work with D-jet.

I am using a 74 2.0L Djet setup with a tuned 043 MPS

[sjhenry1075]

Thank you for all the information guys! Now I'm leaning towards a 1911. I'll pull my 1.7, replace the heads and add 96mm P&C's, a very mild cam, and the stock D-jet. I have an MSDS header to replace my heat exchangers.

For those who have 2.0 heads, have you had any issues with them? There's a thread by Jake Raby who stated 95% of the ones he's seen have cracking issues. Are they just not reliable? Would it make more sense to machine my 1.7 heads or 1.8 heads?

[Mark Henry]

2.0 heads it depends on maintenance history and how far south they lived. In Canada we didn't have near the cracking issues of say a heads from a Texas car. If they are/were caked with grease and overheated often that also contributes to cracking.
If the heads had no cracking and repaired proper I'd run them.
If they have cracks and exhaust stud issues the cost of repairs doesn't make sense when you can buy a set of Len's heads.

I wouldn't put a dime into 1.7 heads unless it's for a 1.7.

[Bleyseng]

the cost of repairs doesn't make sense when you can buy a set of Len's heads.

I wouldn't put a dime into 1.7 heads unless it's for a 1.7.

Totally agree! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) Messing with old worn old aluminum heads is a waste of money these days as you can get brand new heads done right. We used to rebuild 2.0l heads cuz there weren't any new ones.

[sjhenry1075]

1911 if you are starting with an engine that has a strong bottom end and you don't want to split the case. It seems like a great bang for the buck, you can get its full potential without upgrading the FI.

2056 if you aren't worried about a full teardown and can spend on whatever case machining is necessary. Full potential comes with well tuned fuel delivery.

If you're really interested in what I personally am planning, I'm putting the 1.7 back in while I build a 1911 with a spare case/crank that I have, then I'll swap them and start building the original 1.7 into a 2056 and swap again when that's done.

What kind of increase would I see if I went with option 1 that includes 2.0 heads?

[iankarr]

the cost of repairs doesn't make sense when you can buy a set of Len's heads.

I wouldn't put a dime into 1.7 heads unless it's for a 1.7.

Totally agree! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) Messing with old worn old aluminum heads is a waste of money these days as you can get brand new heads done right. We used to rebuild 2.0l heads cuz there weren't any new ones.

+100 I bought my heads from Len and they are works of art for not a bunch. more than what it would cost to weld up and machine 50 year old ones....which probably wouldn't make as much power anyway.