EFI project has started Options

[mb911]

Just a quick update. MFI to EFI bungs are in and will be using the carbs will just be throttle bodies and port injection.

Have at those questions

[Superhawk996]

You’re being a tease

What ECU?

Planning to run Alpha-N control (Throttle Position only)or are you using something like the stock air filter canister with a MAP sensor and Speed Density (SD) control? ECU maybe supports combo mode? I don’t see a TPS on that carb - does that mean you are using SD?

How easily will it be to tune?

Will the ECU support coil on plug or still running a distributor for spark? Can’t see the distributor in your photo - tricky!

What’s required for crank and cam sensing? Let’s see those sensor brackets!

Inquiring minds want to know (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif) Can’t wait to see this project progress and some documentation forging a path. I know EFI has been done before on the sixes but this one is sort of unique and something I may do with my 73.5’ 2.4L

Love the sleeper / clean look that carbs or PMO throttle bodies offer. I might want to try this with Zeniths.

[mb911]

Phil,

Gonna use mega squirt. I have base map’s already. I need to drill 6 fittings in the intakes for the map signal. Will not run TPS. This will be very close as far as principle as bittz racing setup except this system is more precise. It will only use map. The link I provided on the other thread is the system so am mirroring

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911...14-mfi-efi.html

[bbrock]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) Will be watching closely. I'm still hoping to start my megasquirt project this winter but need to get a couple non-car things squared away first. I'll live vicarously through you project until then. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chowtime.gif)

[ClayPerrine]

Why not use these?




https://store.jenvey.co.uk/heritage/heritag...ottle-body-42mm

They are a bolt on replacement for Weber IDA3C carbs. All of the EFI stuff is inside the throttle bodies.

[JmuRiz]

Cool project...I was always wondering about EFI using MFI parts. Maybe I should chat with my MFI expert to see if he has any spares.

[gereed75]

I am going the MFI components route -throttle bodies and mag stacks. In consultation with Jamie Novak and Pete Dawes and company. Motec 84, Denson coil on plug, TPS and other stuff TBD.

I'll post some pix as I get it further along.

[Superhawk996]

Why not use these?




https://store.jenvey.co.uk/heritage/heritag...ottle-body-42mm

They are a bolt on replacement for Weber IDA3C carbs. All of the EFI stuff is inside the throttle bodies.

Pretty cool - but come on $3800? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

The thing I don’t get with the Jenvey’s Is where the injectors are spraying to? The angle of the injectors seems to be that they spray into a passage like a carb jet instead of directly into the air stream? Maybe I’m just not seeing it correctly but Google doesn’t seem to reveal details of their fuel flow path?

The potential to use a common set of carbs as throttle bodies and to repurpose the MFI / CIS ports on some of the early engines is what makes this proposal that Ben is showing unique vs a set of PMO ITB’s, Jenvey’s, or any number of other high(er) cost EFI solutions were you have to ditch the carbs and buy all new ITB’s (IMG:style_emoticons/default/drooley.gif)

[ClayPerrine]

Why not use these?




https://store.jenvey.co.uk/heritage/heritag...ottle-body-42mm

They are a bolt on replacement for Weber IDA3C carbs. All of the EFI stuff is inside the throttle bodies.

Pretty cool - but come on $3800? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

The potential to use a common set of carbs as throttle bodies and to repurpose the MFI / CIS ports on some of the early engines is what makes this proposal unique vs a set of PMO ITB’s, Jenvey’s, or any number of other high(er) cost EFI solutions. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/drooley.gif)

These are designed for a stealth EFI installation. They look like carbs, and unless you find the wires coming out the bottom, nobody would notice. For a factory six, this would be perfect. Hide a microsquirt ECU under the air cleaner, and nobody would notice the EFI.

The cost of EFI throttle bodies is what led me to making my own for the flat fan upgrade on my car.

Reusing MFI stacks is simple. Just fabricate a TPS mount to replace the switch at the crossbar, and make some MFI to EFI injector adapters.

I actually started on this for my old 2.4 motor. It's not hard to do. Use a 911 hall effect distributor and a toothed wheel behind the crank pulley, plus microsquirt.

[mb911]

Why not use these?




https://store.jenvey.co.uk/heritage/heritag...ottle-body-42mm

They are a bolt on replacement for Weber IDA3C carbs. All of the EFI stuff is inside the throttle bodies.

Mainly cost and that I just redid a mechanical restoration on the carbs(performance oriented) and some day I may want to go back to them. I have a total of 1k into this setup.

[ClayPerrine]

Why not use these?




https://store.jenvey.co.uk/heritage/heritag...ottle-body-42mm

They are a bolt on replacement for Weber IDA3C carbs. All of the EFI stuff is inside the throttle bodies.

Mainly cost and that I just redid a mechanical restoration on the carbs(performance oriented) and some day I may want to go back to them. I have a total of 1k into this setup.

You probably want to pull the venturis out of the carbs if you intend to use them as EFI throttle bodies. Less restriction.

[mb911]

Why not use these?




https://store.jenvey.co.uk/heritage/heritag...ottle-body-42mm

They are a bolt on replacement for Weber IDA3C carbs. All of the EFI stuff is inside the throttle bodies.

Mainly cost and that I just redid a mechanical restoration on the carbs(performance oriented) and some day I may want to go back to them. I have a total of 1k into this setup.

You probably want to pull the venturis out of the carbs if you intend to use them as EFI throttle bodies. Less restriction.

Yes probably so.

[JamesM]

Phil,

Gonna use mega squirt. I have base map’s already. I need to drill 6 fittings in the intakes for the map signal. Will not run TPS. This will be very close as far as principle as bittz racing setup except this system is more precise. It will only use map. The link I provided on the other thread is the system so am mirroring

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911...14-mfi-efi.html

Would love to see some datalogs when you get them. MAP only with ITBs on a 4 tends to be problematic, especially at lower RPM+higher throttle angle. Even with undersized ITBs you could wind up with only about 30% of the fuel map tunable. Interested to see if it works better on a 6.

Megasquirts hybrid alpha-N mode (uses speed density where you have vacuum and alpha-N where you don't) is amazing when setup properly. The trick is getting it setup properly.

[914_teener]

Why not just keep the MFI?


I always thought it was genious.

[ClayPerrine]

Why not just keep the MFI?


I always thought it was genious.

I had a 2.4L MFI motor in my 914-6 conversion for a long tme.

The performance is great, and the sound is GLORIOUS!!!

But to live with MFI on a car you want to be a daily driver, not so good.

Typical morning startup from dead cold on a day below 40F.

Get the can of ether and spray it into the air cleaners on both sides.

Attempt to start the car. It sputters and dies.

Repeat.

Repeat.

Around the fourth time it will catch and run badly on 4 or so cylinders. So set the hand throttle to 1500 RPM to let it run for a while.

As it warms up, it will start firing on the rest of the cylinders. Ease the hand throttle down slowly as the RPM increases to keep it at 1500 RPM.

Once the engine is running smooth on all six and the oil temp starts to come off the peg, ease the hand throttle down until it idles at 950RPM.

Now you can back out of the garage and drive gently for a while until the rest of the chassis and drivetrain warm up.


Contrast that to EFI.

Get in car. Turn key. Car starts and idles on all six cylinders. Wait about 30 seconds and back out of the garage. Drive gently until the engine, transmission and chassis warms up.


To be completely transparent, I never connected the MFI cold start fuel enrichment system. They were nicknamed "the firestarter" for a reason. I have seen the stacks catch on fire because of a backfire on cold start. No Bueno.

[914_teener]

Why not just keep the MFI?


I always thought it was genious.

I had a 2.4L MFI motor in my 914-6 conversion for a long tme.

The performance is great, and the sound is GLORIOUS!!!

But to live with MFI on a car you want to be a daily driver, not so good.

Typical morning startup from dead cold on a day below 40F.

Get the can of ether and spray it into the air cleaners on both sides.

Attempt to start the car. It sputters and dies.

Repeat.

Repeat.

Around the fourth time it will catch and run badly on 4 or so cylinders. So set the hand throttle to 1500 RPM to let it run for a while.

As it warms up, it will start firing on the rest of the cylinders. Ease the hand throttle down slowly as the RPM increases to keep it at 1500 RPM.

Once the engine is running smooth on all six and the oil temp starts to come off the peg, ease the hand throttle down until it idles at 950RPM.

Now you can back out of the garage and drive gently for a while until the rest of the chassis and drivetrain warm up.


Contrast that to EFI.

Get in car. Turn key. Car starts and idles on all six cylinders. Wait about 30 seconds and back out of the garage. Drive gently until the engine, transmission and chassis warms up.


To be completely transparent, I never connected the MFI cold start fuel enrichment system. They were nicknamed "the firestarter" for a reason. I have seen the stacks catch on fire because of a backfire on cold start. No Bueno.

Yea....considering it was developed so that the Messerschmidt could fly upside down and for 6 G turns....sounds like the prestart checklist and magneto start up.....


But when it runs right......sheeeez. What a sound and unmatched performance.

914 DD....naw... keep the MFI for the sound if only.

[mb911]

Why not just keep the MFI?


I always thought it was genious.

Cause I never had it to begin with.

[mate914]

I would like to see a complete list of parts needed.
Thanks, Matt

[mepstein]

Ben put the engine together from scratch, using parts he obtained. The heads are mfi but he never had an mfi engine. MFI is really cool and has a strong Porsche history but it’s not for the faint hearted. Ben is in WI and puts his engine to bed over the winter. MFI is probably the worst sort of injection to let sit for months. I’m guessing one of the reasons he’s doing modern efi is so he can just jump in the car and go.

[rudedude]

My mfi cars start much easier than is described above, but once i got my microsquirted car tuned and running well it is much easier on the fuel consumption and starts so nicely