Porsche Certificate (Zertificate) NLA Options

[JeffBowlsby]

I just learned that Porsche (Germany) has now limited their access for the Certificate (Zertificate) because the 914 is too old – nothing older than a 993 is now possible.

I wonder if this is related to the new system of PPS and CTC for classic Porsche here in the US?

[davep]

That may explain why the 914/4 data disappeared a few months ago that I had some access to.
Are they really trying to antagonize all the early Porsche owners? Time will tell, but that would appear to be very foolish. 45 years worth of records deleted? Really?

[JeffBowlsby]

Don’t think they are deleted, just only accessible now thru the PPS/CTC program.

[914Sixer]

Another way to make more money?

[wonkipop]

@davep and @JeffBowlsby

that settles it then for me.
i am going to try VW classic.
gives me all the info on the car including confirmation of original engine number.

https://www.volkswagen-classic-parts.com/en...zx6xJZtm43axQ-A

its a reasonable cost from VW direct.

i can't see why it won't work.
anywhere else in the world besides USA/Canada the 4 was a VW-Porsche.
i live in aus and the car resides here now.
it was sold at VW dealerships (only) in Germany (at least).
its got a VW model number. 471. ie its a type 4 "ghia". or at least a half of one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

ill be ticking the other country - english language box.

likely porsche north america were using some kind of date base that resided inside VW-Audi or VW of N A records for the 4s, not necessarily a data base held by VW in germany.

the VW certificates are produced from data held in the german operation data base i believe.
where all the old factory records are stored.
karmann was by the time the 914 was being produced owned and operated by VW.
all cars produced for VW used VW protocols and systems for production orders and records. people are able to get classic certificates for beetle cabs built at the same time and in the case of the 914 during late production on the very same production line.

[JeffBowlsby]

Sounds good Michael. Let us know how it works out.

[davep]

Oh, the dealership system may be devoid of the early Porsche data, but my primary sources are not affected in any way. I am still producing Reports for the 914.
I have been working hard for the last week rebuilding my database on the 914's and trying to figure out the model code once again. It is not as simple as I once thought and there are definitely errors in the codes derived from the Window Stickers and the options I see on the CoA's of old.

A couple of items that have appeared out of my renewed study of the 914 data are:
1) the Production # (handwritten under the dash) and the Karmann body # (stamped on the paint badge and in the rear trunk floor until sometime in 1974 then moved to a badge in the front trunk) became synchronized beginning with the 1974 model year. There may be exceptions I have no found yet.
2) option M002 ( sealed beam headlight; supplied by the USA) should be a standard option supplied with all 914 delivered to the USA for distribution starting about 1974

[wonkipop]

Oh, the dealership system may be devoid of the early Porsche data, but my primary sources are not affected in any way. I am still producing Reports for the 914.
I have been working hard for the last week rebuilding my database on the 914's and trying to figure out the model code once again. It is not as simple as I once thought and there are definitely errors in the codes derived from the Window Stickers and the options I see on the CoA's of old.

A couple of items that have appeared out of my renewed study of the 914 data are:
1) the Production # (handwritten under the dash) and the Karmann body # (stamped on the paint badge and in the rear trunk floor until sometime in 1974 then moved to a badge in the front trunk) became synchronized beginning with the 1974 model year. There may be exceptions I have no found yet.
2) option M002 ( sealed beam headlight; supplied by the USA) should be a standard option supplied with all 914 delivered to the USA for distribution starting about 1974

when you say "synchronised" dave, re the production #, do you mean that there were different non matching #s in those locations prior to 1974?

[davep]

Yes, by "synchronized" I mean that the the two numbers are the same.
Back in 1965 when the 912 was introduced Karmann added their own number to the chassis; initially in the speaker recess in the dash, then after about 3500 cars it was stamped on the tunnel along the edge of the hole at the rear for linkage access. Back then the number was not synchronized with the VIN/Production #, but was in the same format. In 1968 there were 911 chassis built by Karmann, and the Karmann # again mimicked the VIN but was generally not identical. In 1969 the VIN was no longer the Production # and the format of the Production # and the Karmann # changed from that of the VIN. The Karmann # was the same series for both 911 & 912, but again they were not synchronized. 1970 brought the 914/4 & 914/6. For the 911 & 912 the Production # and the Karmann # became synchronized, but the 914/6 was not; about 2500 cars into 1970 914/6 MY the Production # and the Karmann # did become synchronized. In fact the Karmann # was not identical in format with the Production #; it was missing the year digit in 1970, but got the missing digit for 1971. The 914/4 got an entirely different Production # and Karmann # scheme, but they they were not synchronized until the 1974 model year. And, as we have discovered, not only has the Karmann # scheme varied a bit over the years (base xxy95zz and xxy90zz) but has been shared with some VW models for a period of time.

[wonkipop]

Yes, by "synchronized" I mean that the the two numbers are the same.
Back in 1965 when the 912 was introduced Karmann added their own number to the chassis; initially in the speaker recess in the dash, then after about 3500 cars it was stamped on the tunnel along the edge of the hole at the rear for linkage access. Back then the number was not synchronized with the VIN/Production #, but was in the same format. In 1968 there were 911 chassis built by Karmann, and the Karmann # again mimicked the VIN but was generally not identical. In 1969 the VIN was no longer the Production # and the format of the Production # and the Karmann # changed from that of the VIN. The Karmann # was the same series for both 911 & 912, but again they were not synchronized. 1970 brought the 914/4 & 914/6. For the 911 & 912 the Production # and the Karmann # became synchronized, but the 914/6 was not; about 2500 cars into 1970 914/6 MY the Production # and the Karmann # did become synchronized. In fact the Karmann # was not identical in format with the Production #; it was missing the year digit in 1970, but got the missing digit for 1971. The 914/4 got an entirely different Production # and Karmann # scheme, but they they were not synchronized until the 1974 model year. And, as we have discovered, not only has the Karmann # scheme varied a bit over the years (base xxy95zz and xxy90zz) but has been shared with some VW models for a period of time.

the data i have goes like this.

all VW models share the production plate scheme code during the time the 914 is built.
inclusive of the 914/4. but not the 6.

the forth letter of the code designates the VW factory making the car.
in the case of all ghias, beetle cabs and 914/4s this digit is 9.
every production plate i have seen for those three models for all the years of the 914/4 production has 9 as the forth digit.
the fifth digit is assigned to the models.
up to late in the 74 model year (i think its may 74 - id have to check the data i have, but its the time that the riveted plate appears in the front trunk of the 914/4) the firth digit is designated as follows -
beetlle cab - 1 or 2 (2 used if daily production exceeded 100)
karmann ghia - 3 or 4. (4 used as above)
914/4 (inclusive of2.0 and 1,7/1.8) - 5 or 6 (6 used as above).

that 5th digit shuffled at the time production started on the vw scirrocco at the karmann factory. if i recall correctly the scirrocco got the 5th digits the 914s had up until that point. and the 914 got the 5th digits that the karmann ghia had. the ghia ceased manufacture at that time.

ive got riveted production plates from other VW models through those years in the 70s.

i have a beetle that has 5 for the forth digit.
i have a 411 or 412 where its a 3.
i once stumbled across a bit of data which gave the numbers assigned to the VW factories at that time. i thought i filed it. i probably did but i cant locate it now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
but i am pretty sure the 4th digit signals the factory.

i dont have a huge amount of data when it comes to all three numbers on a 914.
ie. rear trunk stamp. karmann plate. handwritten number under dashboard.
but the two i have and can find easily on file (starbear and myself) - those three numbers all match. star bear is nov/73 1.8 and mine a jan/74 1.8.

what i have discovered is that the riveted plate that appears on 914s in late 74 model year to replace the number stamped in trunk is a plate that all other VW models produced at factories other than karmann had already had since around 1970 MY.
all that happened with the 914 is that VW enforced the practice at kamann beginning at that time around may. likely the production of the scirrocco instigated this formal change?

for most other factories aside from karmann the paint number was also stamped on that riveted plate and it was marked sideways. that plate was attached to the bodies prior to them being painted. it was always painted over. the karmann built VWs never got the paint code marked on that plate. i guess they built in low enough volumes that it was simply marked on the production order build sheet and the production number stamped on the body was sufficient to ensure cars were correctly painted in batches.

i've got data on the 73 1.7s and the 75 1.8s.
and as far as i am aware the k plate production number matches the number stamped in the rear trunk or the riveted plate in the front trunk.
but i don't have that much in the way of examples of those where i was able to collect the stamped number in rear trunk or riveted plate in those cars.

there are of course mistake cars.
i am aware of those examples you found for 914s in late 74 model year with the production plates that for a very short blip period seem to get the beetle digits in the 5th number. i reckon they are mistake cars that result from production line confusion as the production in the assembly hall got re-arranged to being prepared for full production of the scirrocco. my guess is that the area that had been assigned to the 914 build was given over to scirroccos and the 914 went on to the old ghia production aisle.

but generally i would have thought the stamped number in the trunk of all the fours up to 74 would match the number in the karmann plate in the drivers door jamb. and its a VW production code number as the 4 is being treated as a VW model with a type 4 model number.

i would be very surprised if this was not the case.

i can understand that the 912, 911 earlier than the 914 and the 914/6 get an entirely different numbering system. this would accord with porsche dictates. these bodies were all subcontracted out to karmann by porsche and have nothing to do with VW other than as the owner or part owner of karmann doing the subcontracting to provide trimmed bodies.

its always amusing that porsche snobs back in the 70s moaned that the 4 was a VW built car. given that all USA market 912s and some 911s were essentially built precisely the same way by karmann. interestingly all the 912s in rhd form for UK and Aus were not built at karmann but at reutter. and are quite rare. i think there were only about 100 ever built. most of which survived in australia. super rare. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[wonkipop]

@davep

i found again some of the primary material i had on the 7 digit VW production code plates found on VW produced cars after 1969. these are the riveted plates that appeared in the front trunk of 914s late in the 1974 MY, but which were on all other VW models produced at least at the german factories from 70MY on.

the first three digits are well understood.

first two = week of calendar year of production. weeks are measured in full weeks of production beginning the year. ie week 01 = the first full week beginning a monday.

third = day of week.

the second group of four numbers is a little less simple.
the second group is often separated from the first three by a hyphen on the riveted plates.

its a combination of the factory where its made and the expected or known/anticipated production volume per day of the models in question.

for instance:
vw beetles produced at wolfsburg factory from 70 to 74.
the first of the four digits is either a 0 or a 1.
the next three are the number of the car produced that day in sequence or order of production down the line.
given that in excess of 1000 beetles were made a day at wolfsburg at peak production it would go like this.
0 then 000 all the way to 999.
then 0 would click over to 1 and again 000 to 999.
they never made more than 2000 beetles per day at w/burg.
so those numbers worked to cover cumulative beetle production order numbers daily.

i have vw 411/412 production plates.
when it comes to the final 4 digits it seemed to go like this.
the first of the 4 was an 8.
then the next three were the sequential number for the day. 000 to 999.
i don't believe 411/412 daily production ever exceeded 1000.
as far as i can work out the 8 was applied at wolfsburg when the 411 was produced there and the 8 went with the cars when they were transferred to production at salinzer factory.

i also have some later production beetle plates on file post 1974.
at this point beetle production shifted to the embden plant.
these cars seem to get a 6 as the first of the final four digits.

as to karmann.
all the models there have 9 as the first of the four digits.
from 70 to 74 the following applies to the final three digits.

beetle cabs get 3 - and then 00 to 99 for first hundred.
then 4 with 00 to 99 for second hundred.

karmann ghias get 0, 1 and 2 as far as i can figure out.
last two numbers as per beetle cabs.

914s get 5 and 6.
last two numbers as per above.

in late 74 the numbers get a shuffle as the vw scirocco enters production.
the scirocco get the 9 as the first digit of the last 4 as per previous karmann built cars.
it seems to inherit then the numbers 5 and 6 previously assigned to the 914.
and possibly it got more as it became a successful model selling in numbers never achieved by the 914. i have not seen enough plates to know for sure.
but if production volume exceeded 300 per day then it may have received a 7 as the first of those last three numbers and so on.

the 914 appears to get the karmann ghia numbers of 0 and 1 (at least) at this time.

the cab continues to be built with 3 and 4.

--------
there appears to be some mistake cars in the mix around that time that got assigned beetle production order numbers. either the plates were stamped incorrectly or there was some glitch in the ordering/build sheet information given to the production line.

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it is at this time that karmann ceased to stamp the production order number in the trunk and switched over to standard vw production methods of a riveted plate in front trunk.

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sometime later on the production line the karmann plate was affixed in the door jamb of all three models and the same number was stamped into that plate. this was a little nod to karmann tradition where the plate had always been on the cars to notate they were special karmann made cars as distinct from run of the mill vws made at the big main vw factories and also to a time when karmann was an independant sub contractor to vw and other manufacturers.

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point being the karmann plate number was always synchronised to the vw production plate code through all years of 914 production - apart from some glitch cars i believe, which date from the rearrangement of the production lines for the manufacture of the scirocco.

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the only departure i am aware of outside of that is that karmann would sometimes reduce this 7 digit number to 6. this applies for the first 4 weeks of any calendar year.
instead of say 04 for week 4 they would stamp 4. at least on the karmann plate in the door jamb. i have such a car. 4th week of jan 1974. its a 6 digit number starting with 4. no 0. but thats not really a different number to the number under the dashboard or the trunk stamped number. its still synchronised. they just left off the 0 on the door plate.

[davep]

That is a very good summary. So let us assume 3 production lines, then line 1 uses 0, 1, 2 for the fifth digit, line 2 uses 3, 4 for the fifth digit, line 3 uses 5, 6, 7 for the fifth digit.
I find it a bit odd that the Scirocco bumped the 914 onto line 1 instead of taking over line 1. Perhaps line 3 was easier to convert for Scirocco production; possibly the newest line in the factory.

1974 week 36 was the transition to xxy9000 base, then week 37 through week 42 the numbers range from 001 to 367 with an outlier of 880 if the reported data is to be believed. However it appear that from week 37 through 42 they mixed the models on lines 1 & 2 to produce just shy of 400 cars a day. We would need a lot of data from 914 production during the period, as well as from any VW/Karmann vehicles in production at the time.
If you have relevant data you could send me, It would aid my understanding. Surely there must be someone as nuts as I am collecting this data for Beatle cabs, Ghia's and Scirocco's. I just need to find those people.

[wonkipop]

That is a very good summary. So let us assume 3 production lines, then line 1 uses 0, 1, 2 for the fifth digit, line 2 uses 3, 4 for the fifth digit, line 3 uses 5, 6, 7 for the fifth digit.
I find it a bit odd that the Scirocco bumped the 914 onto line 1 instead of taking over line 1. Perhaps line 3 was easier to convert for Scirocco production; possibly the newest line in the factory.

1974 week 36 was the transition to xxy9000 base, then week 37 through week 42 the numbers range from 001 to 367 with an outlier of 880 if the reported data is to be believed. However it appear that from week 37 through 42 they mixed the models on lines 1 & 2 to produce just shy of 400 cars a day. We would need a lot of data from 914 production during the period, as well as from any VW/Karmann vehicles in production at the time.
If you have relevant data you could send me, It would aid my understanding. Surely there must be someone as nuts as I am collecting this data for Beatle cabs, Ghia's and Scirocco's. I just need to find those people.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

probably no one in VW land as nuts dave. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

i did see something interesting yesterday when i ventured out to classic porsche car and coffee do at the main porsche dealership down town here.

there was a left hand drive 912. obviously of USA origin i believe.
beautifully restored. it had a porsche C of A on it.
the C of A described it as a "karmann coupe".
i forgot to take a photo of the certificate.
but that accords with the view that all of the 912s in the 60s were built at karmann the same way that 914/6s were also built. body supplied to stuttgart fully trimmed, mechanicals fitted at porsche in stuttgart.

unlike the RHD 912s. they were all built by reuter in stuttgart. and are rare as hens teeth. only about 100 or so made. split between UK and Aus mainly.

also confirmed cost of this new classic process at porsche is 1000 bucks australian.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

the whole event as it turned out was to flog the new C of A process porsche are promoting. they asked me was i interested for my 914. i told them i had a long memory and i believed it was a VW. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) i did get a laugh out of them.

[davep]

but that accords with the view that all of the 912s in the 60s were built at Karmann the same way that 914/6s were also built. body supplied to Stuttgart fully trimmed, mechanicals fitted at Porsche in Stuttgart.

I understand that the Karmann built 912's were completed at Karmann just as the 914/4 were. I think the 914/6 was the exception when fully trimmed bodies were delivered to Porsche for final assembly

[wonkipop]

but that accords with the view that all of the 912s in the 60s were built at Karmann the same way that 914/6s were also built. body supplied to Stuttgart fully trimmed, mechanicals fitted at Porsche in Stuttgart.

I understand that the Karmann built 912's were completed at Karmann just as the 914/4 were. I think the 914/6 was the exception when fully trimmed bodies were delivered to Porsche for final assembly

my info is that the 914/6 is not only exception.
karmann built 356 c built same way as 914/6.
trimmed finished body shipped to porsche where running gear and engines installed.

previously i had thought all 912s were built the same way.
not completely finished at karmann. just a trimmed completed body.
but recently i found out all rhd 912s had reutter bodies and were completely built at zuffenhausen. also euro market 912s. karmann built the 912s for USA.

but i don't really know with any authority. though i did speak to the guy with the 912 at the c and c @ porsche. he said his was body built at karmann, car finished in stuttgart. it was a left hand drive USA import car he had. he seemed to know a bit about them - but you know? who knows. he did say he believed the karmann built cars were better in his view. karmann worked hard to deliver better quality than reutter. competitive spirit? i didn't bring up RUST. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[wonkipop]

but that accords with the view that all of the 912s in the 60s were built at Karmann the same way that 914/6s were also built. body supplied to Stuttgart fully trimmed, mechanicals fitted at Porsche in Stuttgart.

I understand that the Karmann built 912's were completed at Karmann just as the 914/4 were. I think the 914/6 was the exception when fully trimmed bodies were delivered to Porsche for final assembly

here is the info i have @davep



and the reference as to where the info was referenced to.
says the 912 and 911 bodies were made at k factory.
but not final assembly.



it would make sense that porsche could have easily handled final assembly for all the cars in the 60s. the annual production numbers for the 912 as i understand it were only about 4500 total (k bodies + r bodies) annually on average. the 914 was another matter because annual production was 4 to 5 times that total at 15k-25k range depending on the year. VW and porsche needed karmann to do full assembly of the cars at those numbers. too much for porsche to handle and too small for normal VW factory to even want to look at.

[wonkipop]

but that accords with the view that all of the 912s in the 60s were built at Karmann the same way that 914/6s were also built. body supplied to Stuttgart fully trimmed, mechanicals fitted at Porsche in Stuttgart.

I understand that the Karmann built 912's were completed at Karmann just as the 914/4 were. I think the 914/6 was the exception when fully trimmed bodies were delivered to Porsche for final assembly

this is a pretty definitive answer to the question of did karmann build complete 912s.

from the horses mouth.

go to approx 8 min mark.
turn closed captions on for english subtitles.

all the 912s 911s and 356s were built to fully trimmed body stage and shipped to porsche in stuttgart for completion. as an aside - whether these are 912 or 911 bodies you can tell they are intended for the USA. head lights are missing (empty bucket). i believe the USA sealed beam headlight units were fitted to the cars after arrival in the USA by distributor/dealers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlwBUzCn5VU&t=533s

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stills from the film the karmann spokesman refers to showing truck transport of 912/911 bodies to porsche. arrival of bodies at werk 2.








its often thought that the 914/4 was intended to be a replacement for the 912 for porsche. but thats not strictly accurate. the 914/6 was supposed to be the cheaper porsche to replace the 912 in the line up. and the 4 was supposed to be even cheaper and truly mass market everyman sports car to replace the karmann ghia. it makes sense that the 914/6 was built by karmann and delivered to porsche same way the 912 was. unfortunately it failed even by 912 numbers. at best achieved only half the sales of 912s in its first year. and not really as the 2000 produced that year took a lot longer than that to finally sell.

[davep]

I stand corrected. I've never seen photos before of the 911/912 bodies being delivered on carts to Porsche.
The main reason the 914/6 failed was the cost of the 914 body exceeded that of the 911 body putting a squeeze on retail pricing and profit as well.

[wonkipop]

I stand corrected. I've never seen photos before of the 911/912 bodies being delivered on carts to Porsche.
The main reason the 914/6 failed was the cost of the 914 body exceeded that of the 911 body putting a squeeze on retail pricing and profit as well.

thats certainly the popularly accepted explanation that has persisted since the cars first existed and failed in the market.

but it was cheaper than the 912 it replaced from numbers i have.

base 912 1969 $7440 in USA
base 914/6 1970 $6000 in USA.
unless those figures are wrong which they could be.
6 had a more powerful engine.
.....yet they did not have too much trouble easily selling twice as many 912s as 914/6s.

reasons were more complex than painting VW as villains who dudded porsche on a deal?
the market is a fickle funny thing. i think that a signficant problem the 914/6 had was perception.

perception is not a problem anymore thats for sure.
its got a market now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
and price is certainly no object. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)