2.0 plenum issue, Can it be removed while in the car? Options

[robkammer]

Hello brain trust! The engine saga continues on our BB. What started in February as an engine reseal, head refresh, and engine compartment repair is still ongoing. The heads needed a full refresh, and close inspection found cracks, that the head expert 'fixed' with Timeserts. Lifter wear pointed to a cam lobe that was half gone. So off the short block went to a very well know Type I and IV engine builder. Wife and I went to Florida and wandered around for a month while this was all taking place. Back to Ohio in March and I started gathering the parts needed for the re-install.
The heads came back looking great, and the short block looked even better, now with fresh bearings, a stock cam and bearings, and a new oil pump.Oh, and we dicovered that I had a 2056, Cool, right?
Got the heads on, all of the tin, wiring and hoses. Put the beast in the car and started the break in process. First 30 miles, then oil change and valve adjust, then 100 more, rinse and repeat. Noticed a pretty significant oil leak coming from the front of the engine. it was the new oil pump, totally unacceptable. The builder came to my shop in hope that the oil cover gasket was the problem. Uh, no.
So out came the motor, back to the builder who is 100 miles away. At the 130 mile mark I also pulled the plugs to see how they were firing. All good, except that three of the Timeserts came out with the plugs, crap.
So while the engine was at the builder I ordered a new set of AMC heads, shipped directly to the builder. Why not, eh?
Get the engine back in with the new heads, start the process again. Got through about 65 miles and the engine is running like crap.
All of the FI bits are working as they should, and all with engine wires are Jeff b's harnesses. The only non functioning bit is the thermo sensor on the side of the plenum.
Plugs looked ok but maybe a bit on the lean side.

Time for a Smoke test! Cool tool for sure, brings back memories of my Lionel trains.

At first glance it looked like the throttle body shaft was leaking, although I had Rocky in Walla Walla rebuild it while the engine was out the second time. Nope, turns out that one of the two unused tubes through the plenum had somehow come loose and is allowing atmosphere into the plenum. I've attached a video.

So after that long intro about my sorrows, the question is: Can I remove the plenum while the engine is in the car? I struggled getting the intake runners onto the plenum the second time while the engine was on the cart, I used the 100 mile old rubber tubes and they may have shrunk. I'll buy new rubbers again, and of course the intake gaskets. But am I delusional that I may be able to get the plenum off in order to repair or replace it without dropping the engine, Again!!??

Any helpful advice will truly be appreciated.

Robbo
 smokin.MOV ( 3.06mb ) Number of downloads: 8

[emerygt350]

Hello brain trust! The engine saga continues on our BB. What started in February as an engine reseal, head refresh, and engine compartment repair is still ongoing. The heads needed a full refresh, and close inspection found cracks, that the head expert 'fixed' with Timeserts. Lifter wear pointed to a cam lobe that was half gone. So off the short block went to a very well know Type I and IV engine builder. Wife and I went to Florida and wandered around for a month while this was all taking place. Back to Ohio in March and I started gathering the parts needed for the re-install.
The heads came back looking great, and the short block looked even better, now with fresh bearings, a stock cam and bearings, and a new oil pump.Oh, and we dicovered that I had a 2056, Cool, right?
Got the heads on, all of the tin, wiring and hoses. Put the beast in the car and started the break in process. First 30 miles, then oil change and valve adjust, then 100 more, rinse and repeat. Noticed a pretty significant oil leak coming from the front of the engine. it was the new oil pump, totally unacceptable. The builder came to my shop in hope that the oil cover gasket was the problem. Uh, no.
So out came the motor, back to the builder who is 100 miles away. At the 130 mile mark I also pulled the plugs to see how they were firing. All good, except that three of the Timeserts came out with the plugs, crap.
So while the engine was at the builder I ordered a new set of AMC heads, shipped directly to the builder. Why not, eh?
Get the engine back in with the new heads, start the process again. Got through about 65 miles and the engine is running like crap.
All of the FI bits are working as they should, and all with engine wires are Jeff b's harnesses. The only non functioning bit is the thermo sensor on the side of the plenum.
Plugs looked ok but maybe a bit on the lean side.

Time for a Smoke test! Cool tool for sure, brings back memories of my Lionel trains.

At first glance it looked like the throttle body shaft was leaking, although I had Rocky in Walla Walla rebuild it while the engine was out the second time. Nope, turns out that one of the two unused tubes through the plenum had somehow come loose and is allowing atmosphere into the plenum. I've attached a video.

So after that long intro about my sorrows, the question is: Can I remove the plenum while the engine is in the car? I struggled getting the intake runners onto the plenum the second time while the engine was on the cart, I used the 100 mile old rubber tubes and they may have shrunk. I'll buy new rubbers again, and of course the intake gaskets. But am I delusional that I may be able to get the plenum off in order to repair or replace it without dropping the engine, Again!!??

Any helpful advice will truly be appreciated.

Robbo
 smokin.MOV ( 3.06mb ) Number of downloads: 8

hold on there... is this djet? If so, vacuum leaks just cause high idle, nothing else.

Let us know and we can guide you through troubleshooting the djet (if that is it).

[robkammer]

I need to fix that leak before going much further. Before pulling the engine out for the oil pump, it was running well, and that plenum was not leaking. It passed the smoke test perfectly. I have a pretty good handle on the D Jet , all components test well, except the Thermotime? sender. Since the car will rarely if ever driven below 40 degrees, I'm not too concerned. If I could find one in working order, I'd buy it anyway.

[JamesM]

Sounds like a bit of an ordeal for sure

Noticed a pretty significant oil leak coming from the front of the engine. it was the new oil pump, totally unacceptable. The builder came to my shop in hope that the oil cover gasket was the problem. Uh, no.

What pump did he use? Almost all available pumps fit like absolute horse (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stromberg.gif) out of the box, will give you leaks and/or low idle oil pressure when warm due to case clearance issues.

All good, except that three of the Timeserts came out with the plugs, crap.
So while the engine was at the builder I ordered a new set of AMC heads, shipped directly to the builder. Why not, eh?

Surprised anyone would even attempt to re-work used type 4 heads these days with the new castings available. Depending on where they come from, out of the box can have issues there as well, usually questionable valvetrain hardware. Best bet is new castings and have the valves/hardware replaced with good stuff by someone that knows what they are doing.

Get the engine back in with the new heads, start the process again. Got through about 65 miles and the engine is running like crap.

Can you elaborate on what it is doing?

All of the FI bits are working as they should, and all with engine wires are Jeff b's harnesses. The only non functioning bit is the thermo sensor on the side of the plenum.
Plugs looked ok but maybe a bit on the lean side.

A non functional thermo sensor on the plenum (assuming we are talking the large switch for the cold start injector) shouldn't be a problem unless its non functional state is shorted to ground, and even then you can just unplug the 5th injector to alleviate that.

Time for a Smoke test! Cool tool for sure, brings back memories of my Lionel trains.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I find smoke tests are under an utilized and incredibly helpful tool. As you have already seen by identifying the massive leak in your plenum. As already said though that leak is basically just functioning as extra unwanted throttle at this point and wouldnt be impacting to much more than causing high idle. If you are NOT seeing high idle then that indicates someone did something to compensate which COULD be a problem, ie dialing back the timing to control idle speed, etc.

So after that long intro about my sorrows, the question is: Can I remove the plenum while the engine is in the car? I struggled getting the intake runners onto the plenum the second time while the engine was on the cart, I used the 100 mile old rubber tubes and they may have shrunk. I'll buy new rubbers again, and of course the intake gaskets. But am I delusional that I may be able to get the plenum off in order to repair or replace it without dropping the engine, Again!!??

Yes you can pull the entire intake with the engine in the car. Easier if you pull the injectors/rails first as clearance can be tight.

I wouldn't worry much about the hoses if you are not seeing smoke out of them, 100 miles isn't much at all for those and I wouldn't suspect they will give you trouble , but if you want to replace them its not going to hurt.

So far though I don't think anything you mentioned is going to resolve a d-jet car running like crap though. Need more information on the specifics.

Since you have the smoke test machine at the ready, I would highly recommend testing the exhaust system. SUPER common to find leaks here and even guys that install these things every day can struggle to get them to seal. I made it a policy to ALWAYS smoke test exhaust systems on 914s even if the guys had not touched the exhaust because they are that common and often fly under the radar.

My gut is telling me you have some MPS issues and with the car being d-jet AND a 2056 some red flags are raised. Stock d-jet setups only run properly on stock motors without some fiddeling. If you have already confirmed that all components bench tested fine, and that the timing is set properly, I would say next step is getting a widebad AFR meter on it (after confirming no exhaust leaks)

[JamesM]

So while the engine was at the builder I ordered a new set of AMC heads, shipped directly to the builder. Why not, eh?

Another potential red flag.

Do you have the link to the specific heads you ordered?