OT: Sort of, Dumbing down cars Options

[Howard]

//Rant

I’m sure there are a lot of reasons car companies do this, but I still wonder why.

As an example, Mazda introduces their RX-8. Interesting car, but high manufacturing costs and not a sales success. Then they spend a ton developing the ‘new’ Miata. Why not offer their 220 bhp six in the Miata, add a coupe version, save on costs and kick some ass? GM has lots of great engines, but put a weak one in the Solstice/Skye. Why not 250hp in that? Afraid of cutting into Corvette’s share?

But Porsche takes the cake. This month’s R/T cover article, ‘Best Porsche Ever’, features the Cayman. And there’s a nice discussion about the 914/6 as the 911 beater. But the NARP syndrome that killed the 914 and feminized the Boxster is still apparent. The styling and engine choice of the Cayman is good, but not great.

They don’t want to beat the 911 mystique and brand loyalty, but I bet someone at the company will get the modern equivalent of the 914-8 for their birthday. Using their existing parts bins, each of these companies could make better cars for less money and still get a higher profit per vehicle. WTF?

[DBCooper]

Do it and then talk it up, for god's sake. So Ford does an SHO, the SVT's, do you hear about it? No, a round of reviews in car mags and they're done. Look what the M-series has done for BMW. So do good cars and then talk about it, get people excited, support them, get some milage out of it. Heck, do good cars and then let US talk about them. There's no american car company that is going to do itself any harm by building a "performance" reputation. These guys generate all the excitement of instant oatmeal. Cold instant oatmeal.

[mikeyb33]

QUOTE (Howard @ Oct 18 2005, 10:51 AM)

...And there’s a nice discussion about the 914/6 as the 911 beater.  But the NARP syndrome that killed the 914 and feminized the Boxster is still apparent.   ...

sorry, I'm apparently acronym-challenged today: ? NARP ?

[SLITS]

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/blink.gif) Huh??????????????

Nice Aromatic Real P.............

Not A Real Porsche

[Brando]

Not A Real Porsche syndrome

Mostly it's to meet emissions standards. Also, it allows manufacturers to offer 'special editions' of the same car with real potential and at higher cost to the buyer. Sport version, R, S, etc...

[Howard]

Agreed, Brando. But if they put the 3.8S from the 911 in the Boxster/Cayman, you would have a car that just about equals the C-GT at less than 1/4th the cost. Put in the new TT motor for a world beater.

And then there's styling. New Z BMW? Who at BMW took this lovely 1959 design

[Howard]

And turned it into this?

[MattR]

I happen to like the new Z4 (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/dry.gif)

they took some chances, unlike the Z3/miata/s2000/boxster


200 hp in a 2500 lb car is just a recipe for liability now days. What about the lady with the 930 that sued porsche back in the day for having too much power? They cant put supercars on the street for a resonable price because the average person cant handle it. Ferrari, maserati, etc. assume if you're dropping 200k+ in a car, it will either sit in a garage or it will be driven hard by someone that knows what they're doing in the right place. Now put 250 hp in a 2700 lb roadster and offer it for $20,000. Diasaster!

In my opinion, the S2000 is marketing genius. They offer a car with a big HP number for the magazines to flaunt that has NO power until 7,000 rpm. Bingo! People can drive with their small hootus' and brag about big HP numbers and not have to worry about swapping ends with ungodly torque.

[Howard]

I like the coupe, too, but photoshop the creases out of the side view and I love it. Same on the new Miata and Cayman. A bit too much 'styling'.

Good point about the performance envelope. One of our companies refused to insure 930's for years because of that suit. But what about a Mustang GT or 1000cc superbike that novices do buy? That's really scary.

[mudfoot76]

QUOTE (MattR @ Oct 18 2005, 03:53 PM)

200 hp in a 2500 lb car is just a recipe for liability now days. What about the lady with the 930 that sued porsche back in the day for having too much power?

I have never heard about that lawsuit -- was it Porsche's fault that she is a retard?

How about the jackass in their Ford Excursion who thinks having 4x4 capability makes him/her invincible on ice, then has a wreck, possibly hurts/kills someone. Is Ford liable there?

How about the recent string of dumbasses who've Fuched up their CGTs, Enzos, Quattroportes, etc by doing stupid things on the street? I know the USA has turned into an insanely litigious society, but I have difficulty fathoming that this is why we're getting crap from the Big 3 in terms of 'enthusiast' cars. I would suspect it is more short-sighted profit seeking.

I would also suspect that a Gayman Turbo would not, in reality, cut too deeply into the sales of the CGT. Most of the CGTs are going to end up sitting in private collections, or only driven to Sunday brunch at the local country club to show off how unfathomably wealthy someone is. CGT is something most enthusiasts will have wet dreams about but never be able to afford, but the cayman is within reach to this group. Totally different audiences with vastly different user requirements. I'm not a marketing expert by any stretch, but I have trouble thinking that someone who desires a Corvette will be satisfied with a Saturn, even if that Saturn has 250 bhp.

[Brando]

I like the new SLK as well...

Want more power... Isn't that why some companies offer "build to suit" ? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)

Example... Porsche GT3, 450bhp NA motor, stripped interior, no creature comforts, beefed up suspension etc...

For those with the real money, they can buy the real cars.

[DBCooper]

QUOTE (Howard @ Oct 18 2005, 12:45 PM)

And turned it into this?

That's the "Nike baskeball shoe" look, with curves, coves and scallops thrown in in "striking" ways, similar to the Elise. I like the car, not that look.

[olav]

I can't think of a new car I would buy right now...

I'm pretty happy with what I got.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/driving.gif)

[eeyore]

MattR: Exactly!

I suspect this is why the GM F-Body is no more -- too much power to the people. Not sure about the Mustang tho...

My gueses for the difference on motorcycles:
1) Motorcycle accidents tend limit damage to the motorcyclist
2) Motorcycles are dangerous anyway, so adding power to them is just statistical 'noise'

[vortrex]

well here's my new car. it's pretty darn fun (190HP, 1900lbs). if you want the "modern 914" don't look to the boxster or the cayman, this is it. you even get all the squeaks, rattles, and clunks. the car is very bare bones. it's very easy to drive though and the handling is beyond believable.

[redshift]

Rocking color, love it.


M

[olav]

QUOTE (vortrex @ Oct 18 2005, 01:24 PM)

well here's my new car. it's pretty darn fun (190HP, 1900lbs). if you want the "modern 914" don't look to the boxster or the cayman, this is it. you even get all the squeaks, rattles, and clunks. the car is very bare bones. it's very easy to drive though and the handling is beyond believable.

Isn't it kinda ugly? Looks like a Nike sports shoe.

The r-compound tires are $$$ aren't they?

Doesn't the 914 have more room?

Can you do your own body work on that thing?

[vortrex]

QUOTE (olav @ Oct 18 2005, 01:31 PM)

Isn't it kinda ugly? Looks like a Nike sports shoe. The r-compound tires are $$$ aren't they? Doesn't the 914 have more room? Can you do your own body work on that thing?

I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

the tires are not that expensive, but they wear after about 8k miles.

the 914 definitely has a lot more room, storage and in the cabin.

sure you can do your own body work. you just bolt on new clams. sadly though, there is no POR-15'ing to be done on the aluminum chassis. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

[zymurgist]

QUOTE (Howard @ Oct 18 2005, 01:51 PM)

GM has lots of great engines, but put a weak one in the Solstice/Skye. Why not 250hp in that? Afraid of cutting into Corvette’s share?

That's what killed the Fiero. (Well, that and the mysterious engine fires in the early models.) The '88 1/2 Fiero had the Lotus suspension for handling, the GT body for looks, and a V-6 engine that could easily be swapped for a Buick 3.8L turbo or a small block Chevy.

GM already had a car that could beat a Vette in a straight line (the Buick Grand National). A car that could beat the Corvette in the twisties was not an acceptable product to the guys at Chevy, and since Chevy has more power in GM than Pontiac, the Fiero went away. Or so I have read.

As for the Solstice, it's supposedly all about balanced performance like the Miata. However, the Solstice is going up against a Miata that has just entered its third generation, and the Pontiac is going in weighing 200 pounds more than the Mazda. Personally, I would have preferred to see the Opel Speedster federalized... gotta love those mid-engine lightweights.

Hey vortrex, wanna take me for a ride? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

[lapuwali]

I'm not so much irritated by the low HP modern cars, it's the fact that when they DO put in lots of power, they insist on also piling on a lot of electronic nannies that often can't be switched off, or can't be completely switched off. The Elise is almost alone in not having this junk. How many people here expect all of the electronic wizardry to still be working when these cars are 30 years old. How many people here expect to be able to find someone who can FIX all of the electronic wizardry in 30 years when it does finally break? I also can't think of a single new car I'm at all interested in owning.

Too bad they couldn't import the Elise when it still had round headlights. I much preferred that look to the current car. It was also 400lbs lighter.