'74 2.0 Won't start (or even crank) when hot Options

[Lavanaut]

First off, I just bought this ride after wanting one for as long as I can remember. This is my first post on this board, and I almost wish I never found it because now I can't get seem to get any work done. Ah well...on to the problem...I'm going to go with the long version, because in my experience more info is better than less with these types of things.

Bought the car from a guy in SoCal. When I got there he started it up just fine. We took it out and drove it, it started just fine. He handed over the keys, I started it right up. I drove it about 10 miles, stopped for lunch, came out and it started up fine. Drove it another 50 miles, stopped for gas, started fine. Drove another 150 miles, stopped, and it started right up. Then I drove it about 250 miles and pulled over to put the top on. Got back in and...wouldn't start. Didn't crank, nothing. All lights came on, headlights worked, but wouldn't start (no clicking either...nothing).

I roll-started it, drove until I couldn't see straight (this was a 900 mile journey to get the car back to Oregon). When I stopped for the night, a quick test showed that it wouldn't start. Came out the next morning, same deal, no luck. Roll-started again and drove the rest of the way home.

Few days later I took it in to my local Porsche dealership. They called me and said that after a couple of hours, they tracked the problem down to "a powered relay that shouldn't have been there". They pulled it out and the car fired right up. Sweet, right? Right...for a couple of weeks. I then took it on a 3 hour road trip, and while it was fine on the way down, on the way back I stopped for gas and got the same old thing ~ wouldn't start, wouldn't crank, nothing. I managed to get it home and let it sit overnight. This time, the next morning, it started! I've driven it around town (read, "short distances") and haven't had any problem at all...it fires right up on the first try. That's where things stand now. Thoughts, anyone?

Oh, by the way, I'm not a "car guy". I've never worked on cars beyond very basic stuff, so please keep this in mind if you would if/when you reply. Me=Noob. Many thanks in advance, I'm psyched to have found such an awesome resource for what I can already tell is going to become an obsession. ;)

Lava

[Cap'n Krusty]

In order:

Bad starter
Bad grounds at the battery, the body near the battery, the transmission, or the body above the transmission
Poor positive connections at the starter or the battery

There is also a possibility that the ignition switch is failing, but it's not supported by the data.

Plenty of OR listers, so avoid the dealership if at all possible. Welcome to the club! The Cap'n

[MBowman325]

I had a similiar issue with my '75 1.8L, but Leamon made me aware of it before I left. A hammer will get you by, to tap on the starter with, but a better solution is to replace the starter. I picked up a mini starter from e-bay for 125 shipped, and haven't had to worry with the hammer since.

You might confirm that by taping on the starter, don't beat it to death, but don't be overly gentle with it when you run into a no-start condition. I tried other implements when it happened to me on the road getting it home (forgot to pick up a hammer at the Wal Mart I stopped at), and between a 10" cressent, ratches and a Mag light, nothing but a hammer worked.

It took an extra set of hands to hold the upper bolt to get the nut started, but it was very straightforward. Disconnect the battery first, and don't worry about the hole in the top of the transmission, it's susposed to be there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It seems like between the BS'ing and going to get my neighbor to hold the bolt, it took me 30-40 minutes. Actual labor should only be like 20-30 minutes tops. Much much easier than doing a starter on a GM car and trying to not let it fall in your face.

In my case, I used a 17mm deep well socket (or a couple of extensions or a U joint will also work) and a 17mm box end wrench. No shims to worry about, just make sure you get all five (three sir) connections on there when you hook it up. A yellow spade connector, the battery cable, and an additional wire to the post.

Some people use the hot start relay. It's cheaper ($20-30 IIRC), and it works, but it's not necessarily the "right" way to do it, depending on who you ask. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

A buddy of mine is not a "mechanic" type guy, despite taking auto mechanics back in HS, and wound up losing a day on the lake because of a fouled plug and his "disinterest" in learning the basics of how the engine on his jet ski worked. It's worth while to learn how to do the small stuff yourself, or ask here and there's always plenty of people willing to offer advice, or at least say something which may or may not be helpful. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Good luck! You won't really need it though.

[914werke]

The Krusty one nailed it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/thumb3d.gif)
combo of hi- temps dirty grounds, marginal starter (solinoid) will create this all to
familiar phenomena. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chair.gif)
"Anybody got a hammer"? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif) vroom (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

[So.Cal.914]

There is alot of people that are going to disagree with me, BUT I went through alot

of starters, cleaned everything,tested all the wiring and the switch. Then about

10 years ago I saw a add for a "hot start kit" , put it in and not once in 10 years

has it failed to start. Even in the summer (125 degrees). Ok Im done, fire away.

[Mark Henry]

Sounds like they took the "hot start kit" out and didn't clean any grounds.

[turboman808]

Think I am having the same problem but haven't had a chance to look into it much. I cleaned all battery connectors. Gonna get to the starter and check it this weekend.

Truth be told I did change the battery and tried to use different connectors. I switched back to the old ones. But still haven't tried to start the car in I guess 2 weeks now.

[jk76.914]

All the advice above is good (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) , but I'd like to balance the emphasis between the +12 circuit and the grounds:

- be sure the +12 battery clamp is clean and sound, as well as the ground.

- be sure the + battery cable is sound. Sometimes the copper corrodes inside, leaving just a few strands packed in with green powder (formerly metallic copper), so you kind of have to wiggle the cable for a few inches in from each end, looking for a spot that seems too flexible.

- look at the seatbelt interlock relay under the passenger seat- If '74 has them, it's probably non-functional anyway, but be sure the two big yellow wires are connected soundly to each other- strip and solder the two ends ideally and bypass the relay altogether.

I had the problem back in '85 on mine. I used to set the brake, put it in neutral (VERY important step!) unroll a straw mat behind the car (I carried it with me for this purpose), lay down on the ground behind the left tire, and reach up with a big-ass screwdriver to short the relay terminal to the battery cable. Car started immediately, which is why I think at least mine was NOT starter OR ground. (And it's also why putting the tranny in neutral was so important!) I DO NOT recommend this procedure! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)

I installed the infamous "hot start kit" and it never happenned again, and I'm STILL running the same starter....

[Joe Bob]

Get a hammer.....whack it....start it....find an SR 68X Bosch starter and put it in...

[jk76.914]

On second thought, why don't you just save yourself some time and get a hammer, whack it, and then you'll have to find yourself an SR68X Bosch starter and put it in!!!

I've gotta go. It's almost beer:30 pm here in the east. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[Joe Bob]

Gud Idear....

[GWN7]

In order:

Bad starter
Bad grounds at the battery, the body near the battery, the transmission, or the body above the transmission
Poor positive connections at the starter or the battery

There is also a possibility that the ignition switch is failing, but it's not supported by the data.

Plenty of OR listers, so avoid the dealership if at all possible. Welcome to the club! The Cap'n

Do the cheap fixes first......clean the grounds as the Capt mentioned. Cheap and free if you own a few metric wrenches.

There are two ground cluster connections up near the headlights. They usually don't cause bad starts (usually headlight/turnsignal operation problems). Clean them too.

If that dosen't fix it, replace the ground cables (trany one first). You can also add a ground strap from the battery to the engine block for a few dollars more.

Then do the starter. (clean the connections at the starter first. Even the plugons to the solinoid)

If that dosen't solve the problem, then look at vapor lock issues.

Oh....welcome to the club (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[turboman808]

hey is this starter any good or should I avoid something like this?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PORSCHE-911...1QQcmdZViewItem

Oh and I still have the same problem. Gonna have to clean the starter terminals when I get home.

[ClayPerrine]

I am suprised that no one mentioned the "big brother" relay under the passenger seat.


Take the passenger seat out and bypass the big brother relay. Just pull the Big Yelllow wire and the Big Yelllow with a Red tracer wire and splice them together.


That MAY be the problem.

[Lavanaut]

WOW....a ton of useful information! Thanks all for the feedback, I've got more than a few ideas where to start now.

Oh, and:

A buddy of mine is not a "mechanic" type guy, despite taking auto mechanics back in HS, and wound up losing a day on the lake because of a fouled plug and his "disinterest" in learning the basics of how the engine on his jet ski worked. It's worth while to learn how to do the small stuff yourself...

I meant to mention that part of my goal in buying my 914 is to learn more about 914s (and cars in general) so that I *can* work on them myself.

Thanks again!

Lava

[rickyhgarcia]

I had the same problem a while back.

My solution was to replace the 914 starter with a 911 starter. After the switch, I never had the problem again.

When I replaced the starter, it was explained to me that the starter proximity to the transmission made it heat up to the point were it would not rotate. For some reason the 911 starter does not have this problem.

[jk76.914]

I am suprised that no one mentioned the "big brother" relay under the passenger seat.


Take the passenger seat out and bypass the big brother relay. Just pull the Big Yelllow wire and the Big Yelllow with a Red tracer wire and splice them together.


That MAY be the problem.

I mentioned it in Post 9 (above)..... I still think voltage drops on the +12v line is a bigger contributor than either grounding OR starter. But I can't deny the centuries of experience the other guys have....

[Rand]

BTW, someone mentioned vapor lock... Don't take any time to hunt that snipe yet. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif) Vapor lock creates a fuel delivery problem, not a cranking problem.

[Lavanaut]

BTW, someone mentioned vapor lock... Don't take any time to hunt that snipe yet. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif) Vapor lock creates a fuel delivery problem, not a cranking problem.

Even *I* figured as much on that one! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I came across the following information while researching this problem, and thought it might be helpful to other folks who are experiencing the same issue. The article touches on many of the same points mentioned by folks already in this thread. Alas, much of it is over my head at this point...

http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/m...tarter_diag.htm

Lava