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> 23mm MC plumbing question
Qarl
post Jan 30 2004, 11:34 PM
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I will be installing a 23mm MC to feed the bigger brakes on the new car. I have heard that their are plumbing issues, and clearance issues when installing the bigger MC.

I'm looking for feedback from those that have done this.

Here is a comparison of the new and old MC. I have some questions.

1) Ports 3 and 4 are the front and rear output ports. These correspond (location-wise) to ports 1 and two on the new MC. It seems that I can just transfer the hardware and lines over without any issues. Correct?

2) The locations of the feed lines are different between new and old. Is this going to be a clearance issue?

3) The hydraulic pressure switch (located between ports 3 and 4) does not have a corresponding location on the NEW MC. But there is another output port on the bottom of the MC (underneath port 1) that I can use? Any clearance issus here?

4) Does anyone know what the bolt on the top of the NEW MC is for? (between the red caps)... If I remove it, will a genie come out and grant me 3 wishes?

These would be easier to answer if my car body were in the same location as my parts. (hopefully in a couple of weeks!)

Thanks!


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0396
post Jan 31 2004, 07:07 AM
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kellzey,

I'll let you know,as Brad suppose to 'drop'one off for me
today or tomorrow.

To my knowledge, the only issue will be clearing the front
inlet . .Cuz the cross member will be in the way.
Also, I believe one has to use the alloy cross member to make this work.
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seanery
post Jan 31 2004, 07:09 AM
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Karl, are you using boxster or 944turbo fronts? Let us know how this pans out.
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0396
post Jan 31 2004, 07:11 AM
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I have a set of big reds 993 turbo on all fours.
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ArtechnikA
post Jan 31 2004, 07:42 AM
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QUOTE(kellzey @ Jan 30 2004, 09:34 PM)
1) It seems that I can just transfer the hardware and lines over without any issues. Correct?

2) The locations of the feed lines are different between new and old. Is this going to be a clearance issue?

3) ...there is another output port on the bottom of the MC (underneath port 1) that I can use? Any clearance issus here?

4) Does anyone know what the bolt on the top of the NEW MC is for? (between the red caps)... If I remove it, will a genie come out and grant me 3 wishes?

been a long time since i did this but it looks familiar. thanks for posting 'cause i'll be doing this in the 911 before spring ...

1) yes. i'd use the back port (2) for the front brakes. i don't recall any issues with the hydraulics.

2) only one inlet is different. i recall the steel lines that plug into the MC have a jog in them. i remember twisting those around so that instead of being parallel, there was an 'X'. but having done that, it fit fine.

3) i don't recall any brake light fitment issues, so if there were any, they were minor...

4) DON'T remove the bolt. you'll only want ONE wish, and that'd be that you hadn't removed it! the original MC's were pretty simple. if anything failed internally, everything failed, and you had no brakes. the bolt is a stop - if the front piston collapses completely, the aft piston will stop against the bolt that protrudes into the bore and give you SOME braking. this is why i recommend using the aft piston for the front brakes - it's your 'fail-safe' circuit. (please review the usual brake references and verify i'm right on this - i did research it, but it's been a while. if i'm wrong, i want to know it! 'cause i'll be plumbing my brakes too and i need to know!)

good luck ! if you find out something's different, pls report back. this time, you (instead of me) get to be the pioneer here ...
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ArtechnikA
post Jan 31 2004, 07:47 AM
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QUOTE(0396 @ Jan 31 2004, 05:07 AM)
I believe one has to use the alloy cross member to make this work.

i've heard this too, but i can tell you from personal experience i did it with a standard OEM 914.6 steel (911) crossmember.

914.4 uses the 914.341.013.03 auxiliary support;
914.6 uses the 901.341.013.03 auxiliary support.

you'd think there's be SOME difference or there wouldn't be two part numbers. i've never tried to put a 23mm MC in a /4 but it goes in a /6 just fine.

you probably need a 911 crossmember - alloy or not...
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Qarl
post Jan 31 2004, 08:47 AM
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Thanks everyone.

The alloy cross member is not a problem...

(IMG:http://www.my914-6.com/images/newsusp.jpg)
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echocanyons
post Jan 31 2004, 09:33 AM
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Karl,
How does the alloy crossmember mount?

The stock crossmember has tabs welded to it, Are the tabes shown in the picture mounted to the body and the x-member?
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echocanyons
post Jan 31 2004, 09:34 AM
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IS the 23mm MC necessary for the monoblocks?

I ask cuz I will be running the same brakes.

I also noticed your cooling ducts for the brakes did you fab these yourself or are they a 911 piece?
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Qarl
post Jan 31 2004, 09:42 AM
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Ducts are a 911 piece from AJUSA also available from SmartRacing.

The 23mm vs 19mm is sort of a tie. Either/or

If there would be a 21mm MC, then it would be perfect, or so I have been told!
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ArtechnikA
post Jan 31 2004, 09:58 AM
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QUOTE(kellzey @ Jan 31 2004, 07:42 AM)
Ducts are a 911 piece from AJUSA also available from SmartRacing.

If there would be a 21mm MC, then it would be perfect, or so I have been told!

are you using the blockoff plates too? i'm planning on using all that same stuff. does the kit come with fasteners to put your hubs back together, or are we on our own for that ?

the aluminum caliper cars came with a 20,55mm MC but those have been NLA for a while, i've been told. if you go to a dealer with one of those cars with a bad MC, i have no idea what they'd replace it with (if you could find a dealer interested in your '71 car these days ...). probably offer to 'upgrade' you to the 19mm for its "superior pedal feel and improved modulation" ... (the "sell what you've got" school of marketing ...
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Jeroen
post Jan 31 2004, 10:20 AM
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QUOTE(echocanyons @ Jan 31 2004, 05:33 PM)
Karl,
How does the alloy crossmember mount?

The stock crossmember has tabs welded to it, Are the tabes shown in the picture mounted to the body and the x-member?

The tabs that are welded to a steel x-member are bolted to a alu x-member
They're in the middle of the pic...

cheers,

Jeroen
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KenH
post Jan 31 2004, 10:23 AM
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Replace the "feed hoses" with the flexible"blue hose" from PP.

Ken
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iamchappy
post Jan 31 2004, 07:45 PM
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Karl
I can post a picture of it when I get back home, it does fit pretty tight as I remember it, and you will lose your brake failure idiot light as mine had no provision for it.
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Downunderman
post Feb 1 2004, 12:32 PM
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Karl,

You will have to file, cut, dremel about 6mm off the back of the bottom edge of the crossmember to clear the 23 mm master cylinder. Did it yesterday.
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ArtechnikA
post Feb 1 2004, 04:10 PM
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QUOTE(Howard R @ Feb 1 2004, 10:32 AM)
You will have to file, cut, dremel about 6mm off the back of the bottom edge of the crossmember to clear the 23 mm master cylinder. Did it yesterday.

interesting - i know i didn't have to do this. and i'm pretty sure i remember you saying you have a factory /6, yes ?

i have to wonder if we're now being sold a different 23mm MC than we used to get 30 years ago. i'm not even sure i moved mine out of NV for comparison purposes. i hope so ...
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Downunderman
post Feb 1 2004, 05:54 PM
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Rich,

In my case it might have something to do with being converted from left to right. The 23 master cylinder almost makes it but not quite.
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Qarl
post Feb 1 2004, 07:22 PM
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Hmmmm.... I think I found an ATE 20.64mm Master Cylinder.

Part number 03.2120-8411.3

I found it here...

http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/...e_hb5_de_en.pdf

Page 14.... Tandem Master Cylinders.
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ArtechnikA
post Mar 13 2004, 05:31 PM
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QUOTE(kellzey @ Feb 1 2004, 05:22 PM)
Hmmmm.... I think I found an ATE 20.64mm Master Cylinder.

Part number 03.2120-8411.3

I found it here...

http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/...e_hb5_de_en.pdf

Page 14.... Tandem Master Cylinders.

i went to that site and didn't see any 20,64mm MC's -- but i didn't see any 23's either...

and here's an interesting note - earlier in this thread, when being faced with the difficulties some have been facing during installation, i had to speculate that perhaps we weren't being sold the same MC i used 25 years ago.

my new one came in a couple of days ago, from Dart Auto (after being jerked around a bit and facing a 25% (!) price increase over their published price by SmartRacingProducts...) sure enough - as you can see - the 'new' MC is not very close to what i used last - it is a MIRROR IMAGE to the part i bought at the Mercedes dealer all those years ago ...

that's gonna require some hardline changes, i bet, and what else i won't know until i get the car up and the access panel off ...


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john rogers
post Mar 13 2004, 09:24 PM
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When I bought mine several years ago, it came with new gromets and tubes for the fluid supply. I installed them before bolting in the m/c and then used new Parker kevlar hose from the top to the feed lines. I also had to make a new rod to go into the back of the piston since the stock 914 one was too short and I wanted to keep the pedal in the normal position. I did not have the pressure switch for the warning light either. You might want to use a residual valve in the line for the rear brakes to eliminate any change of lockup. I adjusted the brake lights so they come on before the m/c actually makes any pressure so the cars behind me will start braking but I'm not really braking yet. Good luck
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