Cam questions |
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Cam questions |
ThinAir |
Mar 28 2004, 10:07 PM
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#1
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Best friends Group: Members Posts: 2,542 Joined: 4-February 03 From: Flagstaff, AZ Member No.: 231 Region Association: Southwest Region |
I'm assembling the pieces that I'll need to rebuild my 1973 2.0L engine that will retain the stock FI. I'm wondering about cam choices and why I would want to choose a particular one. The only change I've made from stock at this point is that I've got Mahle Euro pistons & cylinders, but they are stock size so there is no increase in displacement.
I hear a lot about the Web Cam 73 and here's the info I've been able to find on how it compares to stock: Type/Lift/Duration/Duration @ .050 Stock/.392/?/210 73/.426/262/224 Am I correct that Duration is how many degrees both intake and exhaust are open? Or is that called Overlap? If it is called Overlap, does anyone know the specs on the two cams? What is the difference between Duration and Duration @ .050? Lift is pretty obvious - the 73 is going to open farther. I assume this means it can deliver more fuel mixture in the same amount of open time compared to the stock lift. My car is a daily driver that will probably never see anything more exciting than a PCA autocross. So how do I choose a cam and why do I want one or the other? |
Bleyseng |
Mar 28 2004, 10:14 PM
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#2
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Aircooled Baby! Group: Members Posts: 13,034 Joined: 27-December 02 From: Seattle, Washington (for now) Member No.: 24 Region Association: Pacific Northwest |
Staying with Djet?
The Web 73 will work and increase the high rpm hp alittle and lower the bottom end torque. It will either idle ok or hardly at all depending on the year which I see you have a 73. That year is tough to get to idle right as they don't idle as well as the later cars. Stock works fine Geoff |
ThinAir |
Mar 29 2004, 01:30 AM
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#3
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Best friends Group: Members Posts: 2,542 Joined: 4-February 03 From: Flagstaff, AZ Member No.: 231 Region Association: Southwest Region |
Thanks for the advice Geoff. Just for my own education, can someone point me to a resource for the answers to my questions about what these numbers mean?
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Brad Roberts |
Mar 29 2004, 02:13 AM
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#4
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914 Freak! Group: Members Posts: 19,148 Joined: 23-December 02 Member No.: 8 Region Association: None |
Duration is the amount of time that the valves are open. Sometimes we speak of a split duration camshaft. This means the intake valve and the exhaust valve have different amounts of "duration" Typically cams for our stockish engines tend to have the same duration for intake and exhaust. It is widely accepted that our cars benefit from having more exhaust duration than stock (more crankshaft rotation that the valve is open)
B |
Bleyseng |
Mar 29 2004, 08:52 AM
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#5
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Aircooled Baby! Group: Members Posts: 13,034 Joined: 27-December 02 From: Seattle, Washington (for now) Member No.: 24 Region Association: Pacific Northwest |
And that is the problem with using the Djet as the longer duration changes the vacuum signature/VE curve. This ECU is hard wired for a certain engine specs and if you change it much you have some problems. Some have very little problems with the Web 73 others do. Why? It depends on the ECU year near as I can figure out. The 73 is a bastard year where Porsche cobbled together the 2.0L Djet as they could because they couldn't get a new 2.0L ECU from Bosch fast enough. They actually rushed the whole 2.0L engine project to get it to market after the six was dropped. They knew they needed a second more powerful engine for the 914 other than the 80hp 1.7L. The problem with the six was it was just too expensive.
Geoff |
DuckRyder |
Mar 29 2004, 05:22 PM
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#6
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Avatars Mode: OFF because of the recalcitrant few. Group: Benefactors Posts: 767 Joined: 8-January 03 From: Georgia Member No.: 110 |
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lapuwali |
Mar 29 2004, 05:38 PM
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#7
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Not another one! Group: Benefactors Posts: 4,526 Joined: 1-March 04 From: San Mateo, CA Member No.: 1,743 |
And overlap is the period in which both intake and exhaust valves are open. Race cams tend to have more overlap (more cylinder scavenging by the incoming intake charge), street cams tend to have less. It's overlap that usually causes difficulty with OEM EFI systems, as this increases the amount of "pulsing" in the intake manifold, which confuses MPI sensors in D-Jet, and air flappers in K and L-Jet. Overlap depends not only on duration, but also the lobe centers (where "peak" of the cam occurs relative to the crank). On a single cam engine, the lobe centers are fixed by the cam. On a twin-cam engine, they can be adjusted independently.
Duration at 0.050, btw, means the number of crank degrees that the valve is 0.050 off its seat, rather than the whole time the valve is off the seat. I've also seen numbers quoted as 0.040 off the seat, which will make a cam appear to have longer duration than the same cam quoted at 0.050. These numbers are usually quoted because when you measure the cam on the engine itself, it moves so little and so slowly at the beginning of the movement that it's often hard to tell exactly when the valve starts moving. It's easy to make an error of 10 crank degrees or more if you try to use 0 instead of 0.050. By the time the valve is open 0.050, it's moving fast enough that you can pin it down to one crank degree pretty easily. |
Bleyseng |
Mar 29 2004, 06:00 PM
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#8
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Aircooled Baby! Group: Members Posts: 13,034 Joined: 27-December 02 From: Seattle, Washington (for now) Member No.: 24 Region Association: Pacific Northwest |
The MPS needs a strong 15hg of vacuum at idle as that is what is hardwired in the ECU. Old worn out engines have weaker vacuum and pulses because the valves leak. The result is a overly rich idle as the MPS reads 15hg is idle and 0hg is WOT so if you are only pulling 10-12 hg at idle you are running richer.
You are right about the pulses too as that confuses the MPS as its needs a steady vacuum not one with pulses. The pulses will flex the diaphram ever so slighty which is not good. Geoff |
Dave_Darling |
Mar 29 2004, 06:34 PM
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#9
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914 Idiot Group: Members Posts: 14,990 Joined: 9-January 03 From: Silicon Valley / Kailua-Kona Member No.: 121 Region Association: Northern California |
QUOTE(lapuwali @ Mar 29 2004, 03:38 PM) I've also seen numbers quoted as 0.040 off the seat, which will make a cam appear to have longer duration than the same cam quoted at 0.050. You do realize that 0.040" is about 0.1mm, right? That's why you'll often see European (and Asian) cars quoted as having X duration at 0.040" lift. --DD |
lapuwali |
Mar 29 2004, 07:45 PM
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#10
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Not another one! Group: Benefactors Posts: 4,526 Joined: 1-March 04 From: San Mateo, CA Member No.: 1,743 |
Actually, 0.040 is close to 1mm, not 0.1mm. (1mm = 0.039 inches)
I'd like to buy the 0.040 is close to metric theory for non-US cams, except they also all seem to quote lift in inches, too. 0.050 v. 0.040 is just a convention. I'm used to seeing 0.040 on motorcycle cams, for example. My point is that you need to pay attention to that value when comparing cams. I have seen some places quote duration at 1mm, perversely British car places, which are usually selling cams for cars that use inch-dimensioned parts and fasteners (unless they're so old they're using Whitworth). |
Mike9142.0 |
Mar 30 2004, 01:30 AM
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 219 Joined: 29-January 03 From: Phoenix, AZ Member No.: 208 Region Association: Southwest Region |
Can you get a stock cam still?
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ThinAir |
Mar 30 2004, 09:18 PM
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#12
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Best friends Group: Members Posts: 2,542 Joined: 4-February 03 From: Flagstaff, AZ Member No.: 231 Region Association: Southwest Region |
Yup. Web Cam sells a stock grind for $133 (compared to $158 for the #73).
Thanks to all for the advice on this. The article at CompCams is very good. I had previously looked at How Stuff Works and they have a pretty good article, but not as detailed. What surprised me was that I expected to see the amount of overlap as part of the specs for a cam, yet no one ever discusses it. Perhaps there is a relationship between overlap and lift/duration so that you don't need to spec overlap, but I was thinking that there might be 2 cams that were identical in both of these but had different overlaps. |
Jake Raby |
Mar 30 2004, 09:47 PM
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#13
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Engine Surgeon Group: Members Posts: 9,394 Joined: 31-August 03 From: Lost Member No.: 1,095 Region Association: South East States |
Overlap is easily calculated with any "cam card" just look at the opening and closing events and do the math. The difference is "overlap"
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ThinAir |
Mar 30 2004, 09:51 PM
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#14
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Best friends Group: Members Posts: 2,542 Joined: 4-February 03 From: Flagstaff, AZ Member No.: 231 Region Association: Southwest Region |
This page at Web Cam is typical of the info that's out there. I don't see any events to help with calculating overlap. http://www.webcamshafts.com/volkswagen-auto.html#1
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