Type I Oil pump for front mounted oil cooler?, Does anything else need to be done other than griding the tab? Options

[ThePaintedMan]

Hello all,
I've tried searching for this question, but haven't found anything definitive. Though its still a ways off, I am hoping to add the ol' RX-7 oil cooler up front, complete with a custom fiberglass valence on this '73 1.7. In the meantime, while I've got the motor sitting here in the driveway, I wanted to switch to the heavy-duty oil pump. I have heard this is a good idea with an oil cooler mounted a ways from the pump. I'll be using the sandwich adapter and keeping the stock cooler as well. My question is mostly pertaining to the relief valve inside the motor. Do you have to replace it if you use the type I pump? Will it dramatically increase oil pressure if you don't? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!

[yeahmag]

From my personal experience I would suggest running a minimum of:

* HD springs in the relief valve system
* Disabling the bypass in the filter stand
* Use a thermostatic bypass sandwich adapter
* 30 mm pump

That being said I'll be running the CB Performance 2 stage dry sump pump in mine.

-Aaron

[ThePaintedMan]

Thanks Aaron!
I guess I should have clarified the reason behind this too. The car will need to do 14 hours at Sebring (Chumpcar). So, this is why we're putting the cooler up front , plus coolness/dorkiness factor, depending on your own opinions. For a stock 1.7 doing that much track time, if it lasts, is a HD pump even necessary then? The oil cooler is not optional - the heat being generated for that long means its a prerequisite for us. I'll keep the rest of the suggestions in mind! Thanks again.

From my personal experience I would suggest running a minimum of:

* HD springs in the relief valve system
* Disabling the bypass in the filter stand
* Use a thermostatic bypass sandwich adapter
* 30 mm pump

That being said I'll be running the CB Performance 2 stage dry sump pump in mine.

-Aaron

[yeahmag]

Yup. A 27mm is enough to do the job, but they are all about the same price. Don't think you need more than a 30mm pump. Be sure to block off that bypass on the oil filter stand or you'll bleed all your pressure to the cooler off.

[ape914]

if you block the filter relief valve, be sure to get a high pressure filter can or buy a filter with an internal relief valve. the HP1 filter has a 22 psi valve. the stock relief ball valve at the filter opens at around 10 psi or so.

lesser filter cans can rupture if no relief is used specially if you rev it whilest cold.

since space is at a premium for the stock filter and that space is reduced with a sandwhich adaptor, you may want to use a remote filter mount, this will allow use of a much larger filter, for less pressure drop and less chance of a rupture.

[Mark Henry]

Personally for your app I'd use the 30mm pump (tapped and plugged) with a steel full flow cover, ditch the stock filter stand for a remote filter adapter and use a quality temp bypass. The RX-7 cooler internal temp bypass in stock form may be acceptable for a T4, but you would need to research this. Block off the stock filter mount location and tap into the upper galley plug for return (in a FF app you do not need to tap and plug the bottom galley plug) you must tap and plug the flywheel oil galley plugs.

Try to avoid hard 90* fittings where possible and to use a FF cover you will need to modify the one engine mount for clearance. You will have to prime (bleed) the system before initial start-up.

A pic of the modified mount:
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-4-1082313177.jpg)

[sean_v8_914]

and use longer studs in the case

[ThePaintedMan]

Yikes,
This is a little more involved than I was thinking. Can any of the tapping be done with the motor together? Wouldn't that introduce metal shavings? My other problem with the full-flow approach and removing the stock cooler means that I would have to think of some kind of fan setup if I wanted to drive it on the street afterwards, correct? This car is a little bit of a confusion, I'll be honest as its going to see some racing but hopefully survive so I can enjoy some regular driving from time to time.

[Chris Hamilton]

Your stock 1.7 is overheating without a cooler? Have you checked the tins?

[ThePaintedMan]

Your stock 1.7 is overheating without a cooler? Have you checked the tins?

No, no. It ran fine when I had the motor in it. But its going to be running (hopefully) 14 hours at Sebring in August with Chumpcar. I'm sure it won't be the only one of my concerns, but its my biggest right now. I just am interested in putting it up front.. well, just 'cause. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Mark Henry]

Yikes,
This is a little more involved than I was thinking. Can any of the tapping be done with the motor together? Wouldn't that introduce metal shavings? My other problem with the full-flow approach and removing the stock cooler means that I would have to think of some kind of fan setup if I wanted to drive it on the street afterwards, correct? This car is a little bit of a confusion, I'll be honest as its going to see some racing but hopefully survive so I can enjoy some regular driving from time to time.

Yes, very carefully using a vacuum and greasing the tap and bit, cut a small amount clean and re-grease, repeat.
You still use the stock cooler, it's just the filter stand you are removing if you go this route.

[Cap'n Krusty]

I fail to see where you're getting the idea that it's gonna overheat. I think not. Back in the day, stock 914s were driven all day on long trips here on the left coast, and overheating wasn't an issue then.

The Cap'n

[ThePaintedMan]

I fail to see where you're getting the idea that it's gonna overheat. I think not. Back in the day, stock 914s were driven all day on long trips here on the left coast, and overheating wasn't an issue then.

The Cap'n

Hmmm. I do trust you guys, I promise. But tooling along the highway at 55-65 and trying to push a car hard for 14 hrs are different. I'll definitely do some more contemplating first. I just have a feeling that this might be a worthy investment before finding out the hard way. Again, all opinions welcome.

[Chris Hamilton]

It's only going to overheat if there is something wrong with it.

Make sure the cooler and tins aren't packed with crud ( they might be packed with leaves and other debris ) and tune it up and you should be fine.

[ape914]

stock 1.7's or 2.0 can run too hot with extended driving at high rpm's Pushing 4000 rpm can cause the oil to get too hot specially in a hot climate, or pulling a heavy load or up hills. The cooling system is marginal , push it hard, or spin it faster and it can cause problems.

For a simple fix, try a remote cooler, in addition to the stock cooler, you can use a sandwihich adaptor at the oil filter, and then install a shorter filter to the adaptor (hoses will enter/exit the side of the sandwhich adaptor) you can then mount a remote cooler from those hoses, some sandwhich adaptors have a thermostat built in, or get a remote thermostat. You dont want to skip the thermostat, as too cold oil is not good either.
an other option is to run a remote filter also, using an adaptor on stock filter mount, that has simply an inlet and outlet for hoses, you then mount a remote filter, then a thermostat, then the cooler. The nice thing about a remote filter is you wont be limited to a small filter can. Bigger filters are better as they can flow better and than means less likelyhood of the filter going into bypass mode, and your oil not all getting filtered.

with a good remote cooler you can keep the temps down, and that is a good thing, 180F should be a nice target temp for the sump oil, although under 200F is still very nice temp.
for good cooling get the biggest cooler you can fit, mounted in cool air flow is best, but that usually means the front bumper area, you may not want to cut the car for that.
You can get some cooling however with a flat cooler mounted near the tranny under the trunk floor use an electric fan, but the air under the car is pretty warm, so you may still see some temp spikes, but you will be much better off than stock.

I have mounted a Empi 72 plate cooler under there, you might even be able to fit the 96 plate one (it is about a foot on each side, and about an inch thick, fan addes another couple inches to thickness.) If you have a Bursch type exhaust rather than a stock mufler you will have more room to mount the cooler

but the optimal place is in the cold air stream at the front of the car.

these cars tend to run even hotter than when new becuase of the oxygenated fuels now mandated. Smaller tires also up the engine rpms, and that means more heat too.

[ThePaintedMan]

stock 1.7's or 2.0 can run too hot with extended driving at high rpm's Pushing 4000 rpm can cause the oil to get too hot specially in a hot climate, or pulling a heavy load or up hills. The cooling system is marginal , push it hard, or spin it faster and it can cause problems.

For a simple fix, try a remote cooler, in addition to the stock cooler, you can use a sandwihich adaptor at the oil filter, and then install a shorter filter to the adaptor (hoses will enter/exit the side of the sandwhich adaptor) you can then mount a remote cooler from those hoses, some sandwhich adaptors have a thermostat built in, or get a remote thermostat. You dont want to skip the thermostat, as too cold oil is not good either.
an other option is to run a remote filter also, using an adaptor on stock filter mount, that has simply an inlet and outlet for hoses, you then mount a remote filter, then a thermostat, then the cooler. The nice thing about a remote filter is you wont be limited to a small filter can. Bigger filters are better as they can flow better and than means less likelyhood of the filter going into bypass mode, and your oil not all getting filtered.

with a good remote cooler you can keep the temps down, and that is a good thing, 180F should be a nice target temp for the sump oil, although under 200F is still very nice temp.
for good cooling get the biggest cooler you can fit, mounted in cool air flow is best, but that usually means the front bumper area, you may not want to cut the car for that.
You can get some cooling however with a flat cooler mounted near the tranny under the trunk floor use an electric fan, but the air under the car is pretty warm, so you may still see some temp spikes, but you will be much better off than stock.

I have mounted a Empi 72 plate cooler under there, you might even be able to fit the 96 plate one (it is about a foot on each side, and about an inch thick, fan addes another couple inches to thickness.) If you have a Bursch type exhaust rather than a stock mufler you will have more room to mount the cooler

but the optimal place is in the cold air stream at the front of the car.

these cars tend to run even hotter than when new becuase of the oxygenated fuels now mandated. Smaller tires also up the engine rpms, and that means more heat too.

Yeah, this is what I'm thinking. Front mounted cooler with remote oil filter. My first question was whether a) even needed the 30mm oil pump and b) with the pump what changes I need to make, as in oil pressure relief valve springs. If I need to change the valve springs, would this involve disassembling the engine?

[ThePaintedMan]

Okay, back to the original question... would the relief valve springs need to be changed if running a 30mm pump? Can this be done without tearing the engine apart? From this page http://www.ephotomotion.com/914engine/page12.html it appears so. Since I will already be changing the pushrod tube seals, that might be a good time, no?

[yeahmag]

Need, no. Want to, yes. It's easy even with the motor in the car.

[ThePaintedMan]

Need, no. Want to, yes. It's easy even with the motor in the car.

Okay, now we're getting somewhere! Do I "want" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) to change both the primary and secondary then? Any specific vendor you would suggest? I'd assume Gene Berg.

[ThePaintedMan]

Need, no. Want to, yes. It's easy even with the motor in the car.

Okay, now we're getting somewhere! Do I "want" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) to change both the primary and secondary then? Any specific vendor you would suggest? I'd assume Gene Berg.

OR, am I finally starting to make sense of this? Rather than changing the valves/springs, I could just use a Gene Berg Oil Pump Relief Cover, no? Geez, NOW I get it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)