Exhaust removal - confused, How do I get this sucker off? Options

[ThePaintedMan]

Hello all,
I've been meaning to look for an exhaust leak at the head for some time. I ordered new copper rings, but before I can install them, I need your advice on how to get the exhaust off. As you can see in pictures, the headers have been so boogered up, that it is impossible to fit a socket on some of the barrel nuts. Its like the whole thing has been bent sideways, which means the header is butted up against the barrel nut. One of them in particular is really an issue because for whatever reason I cannot reach the top of the stud. The barrel nut is so far down along the thread that there is nothing sticking out far enough to get a socket on. To make matters worse, while tinkering with it, I backed one of the barrel nuts off only to find the stud pulled completely out. Is it possible to insert a helicoil with the engine in the car once I get the exhaust off? Thanks for the help!

[A&PGirl]

Try a crow's foot and extension. There shouldn't be barrel nuts in the first place.

2nd question: Since that happened, pull the heads off and send them to HAM to get rebuilt. Budget $800-$1000 for the work.

HAM

He fixed up my sorry heads with welding, exhaust studs, correct fly cutting and valve train parts.

[rwilner]

cut off the exhaust close to the head?

[76-914]

Yes, you can helicoil or timecert it in place. Step drill it and you can't miss. Some use the header bolt hole as a guide but I'm not sure if you can do that on all of 'em. Be sure to pay attention to the angle of the stud. It's misleading when under the car.

[rhodyguy]

the stud on the other side of the pipe sticks out quite a bit beyond the nut. note the different nuts. the fasteners look pretty dry. invest in some pbblaster, Aerokriol, or another effective penetrant. spray a couple of times a day for 24hrs. when you start be kind of gentle. if you have to lean in to it stop. spray and relax. it's easier to fix studs before they have broken.

k

[ThePaintedMan]

Carrie,
I have tried a crows foot but unfortunately the nut is in a spot where even a crows foot won't fit. I also got your PM, and will keep you in mind!

Rich,
I'm considering doing that actually. The exhaust has been straight welded to the muffler system by some previous DA. At some point I'll have to put a new exhaust on it anyway.

76-914,
Thanks for verifying that it can be done. Obviously I would want to remove the exhaust first, correct?

Rhodyguy,
All of the nuts on the exhaust are actually pretty easy to turn. The problem is that I can't get to a couple of them, but this one in particular. Am I right in my diagnosis that the exhaust is bent? As in, most people have no problems reaching the nuts?

[stugray]

I have installed the helicoils in the cars on more than one occasion.

In fact, I am looking at the exact helicoil kit on my desk that I used before and have been hauling around for 20 years.

That's what happens when you are a newbie and wonder what that strange shaped bracket is for rolling around in the trunk (Hint: driving around for a year with no muffler bracket is hard on your exhaust studs ;-)
Stu

[McMark]

You can helicoil them in the car, but you are at risk of putting them in crooked or worse, accidentally drilling into the exhaust port. It's really not for the faint of heart, nor for those not familiar with the process. You can absolutely turn those heads into paperweights if you mess up. It can be done, but not everyone can do it.

The nuts are supposed to be 'special' M8x1.25 nuts that are 12mm across the flats. These are used specifically to leave enough room to get a socket on the nuts.

[76-914]

Marks right, it's not for the faint of heart or logical mind. I fit in there somewhere (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
I remember using 3 different sizes, including the one for the tap, and I don't believe there was much more than a 64th between them. The advantage with step drilling is that it is more like chasing so it is easy to follow the existing path. The downside is when drilling in soft metals that SoB will grab and pull your bit in. Bit stop is a must. Know your max depth and don't exceed it.

[3d914]

Take it from experience, helicoils will not work for the exhaust - they'll pull after the first couple of heat cycles. Timecerts are the only way to go. Better yet, have the holes flood-welded and redrilled.

As far as getting the exhaust off. If you get get a couple of hex nuts on the protruding thread, you can back out the stud and all from the head. It may be easier if you drop the engine and can put it on a stand, rotate it upside down and work from there. That way any penetrating fluid you use won't roll down in your face.

There are some shops that can deal with this cleanly - but they need experience with the Type IV.

Good luck

[TheCabinetmaker]

Have you tried a big screwdriver to pry the header over enough to get the socket on?

[ThePaintedMan]

Great replies again guys.
My dad has a time-sert kit from his VW bus days that he is bringing down this weekend. He said that he did it with the engine in the bus before, and if my dad can figure it out, ANYONE can (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I'm not scared, its a learning process anyway. I'll look into finding the correct nuts when I talk to John at Aircooled.net this week.

I did try prying the header over, but with all the horror stories about how delicate the heads are, I went pretty easy on it. Couldn't get enough movement to make much of a difference. Might end up going the cutting route after all. Anyone have an old used 1.7 exhaust lying around they want to get rid of?

As far as shops go - you guys are truly blessed out in California. No one in this part of Florida touches air cooled cars, or at least no one I've heard of that I'd trust. There is a VW buggy shop in Tampa with a great reputation but the last time I stopped in to ask them for advice they basically told me to take a hike. That is what is most frustrating honestly - that a younger person wants to learn about these cars but no one seems to want to share any knowledge. Thats why I'm here.

[rhodyguy]

i'm unlcear as to what is currently installed. headers, hes w/tin, hes without the tin? either way something is wrong with the piping. it must have taken took a pretty good wack to move them around. if you don't care about heat, jim kelly is selling some 2.0 he piping in the classifieds. check out the set with the nice muffler flanges. cut the offending piping on your car so you can get to the nuts and be done with it.

for tight to pipe nuts, but not as tight as yours, a 1/4" drive socket and longer extension will often give you just enough room to slip the socket on with some gentle assistance.

in post #6 he states the muffler has been welded to the flange/piping. i'd scrap the system. in florida i should think there's little need for heat.

k

[TheCabinetmaker]

Do you have that side of the exchanger removed from the muffler? You'll get a lot of movement from it if you break it loose at the back. Maybe enough to get that nut off. I'd try anything before I cut the header.

[walterolin]

Great replies again guys.
My dad has a time-sert kit from his VW bus days that he is bringing down this weekend. He said that he did it with the engine in the bus before, and if my dad can figure it out, ANYONE can (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I'm not scared, its a learning process anyway. I'll look into finding the correct nuts when I talk to John at Aircooled.net this week.

I did try prying the header over, but with all the horror stories about how delicate the heads are, I went pretty easy on it. Couldn't get enough movement to make much of a difference. Might end up going the cutting route after all. Anyone have an old used 1.7 exhaust lying around they want to get rid of?

As far as shops go - you guys are truly blessed out in California. No one in this part of Florida touches air cooled cars, or at least no one I've heard of that I'd trust. There is a VW buggy shop in Tampa with a great reputation but the last time I stopped in to ask them for advice they basically told me to take a hike. That is what is most frustrating honestly - that a younger person wants to learn about these cars but no one seems to want to share any knowledge. Thats why I'm here.

PaintedMan, I have a set of 1.7 pipes, no sheet metal, here in Louisville which you can have. I will even deliver, but you might have to wait for a month or two.

Our daughter lives in Meadowlawn and we are coming down sometime in the next few months.

[ThePaintedMan]

Sorry to resurrect this gents. I just realized there were more responses to this after the last time I posted. Turns out the nuts that are on there are 14mm barrel nuts. Which would explain the lack of enough gap to get a socket on several of them (what doesn't make sense is how they tightened it all down in the first place!). Chances are the exhaust is also tilted since it has all been welded together. When I said headers, I meant heat exchangers, but they are bare/missing the outer tin - not sure what to call them in that case.

Curt, since the exhaust is all one entire piece I don't think I can get any kind of lateral movement without cutting it. We'll see. I might be able to get the passenger side bolts completely off first and then try it.

Walter, thats a really nice offer! I think I can probably make due till then since I have been advised that I have too many issues to tackle at the moment to be driving the car anyway. Meadowlawn isn't all that far away. If you bring them down I will certainly drive over to get them from you. Thanks for the help everyone.