Cylinder Heads, And the replacement thereof... Options

[Nozzle]

Well it looks like it's time for another rebuild on my engine and the current plan is to do a 2056 D-jet build based around the Raby 9590 cam kit from The Type IV Store. I wanted to get some prices for machine work to bring the heads up to snuff as they have well over 200K miles worth of heat cycles on them. So far it seems the costs range from $450 for a basic rebuild of the pair from Rimco to $2700 from The Type IV Store for their tasty 914 2.0 replacement RS+ heads. Needless to say that's quite a range and this is my first engine build so I'm unsure how to proceed.

Although I can stretch the budget for the RS heads, it just means the build will take much longer as that accounts for the lion's share of my original budget. So my question to the forum is, what would you do in my position and why?

Thanks,

John

[Cap'n Krusty]

Well it looks like it's time for another rebuild on my engine and the current plan is to do a 2056 D-jet build based around the Raby 9590 cam kit from The Type IV Store. I wanted to get some prices for machine work to bring the heads up to snuff as they have well over 200K miles worth of heat cycles on them. So far it seems the costs range from $450 for a basic rebuild of the pair from Rimco to $2700 from The Type IV Store for their tasty 914 2.0 replacement RS+ heads. Needless to say that's quite a range and this is my first engine build so I'm unsure how to proceed.

Although I can stretch the budget for the RS heads, it just means the build will take much longer as that accounts for the lion's share of my original budget. So my question to the forum is, what would you do in my position and why?

Thanks,

John

I'm afraid Rimco has joined GEX and Motormeister on the "what were you thinking!" list. Forget about them, as the quality and timeliness of their work has deteriorated. I suggest my friends at Engine Machine Service in Los Angeles, or HAM. EMS charges around $1500 plus valves and springs as needed.

The Cap'n

[malcolm2]

Well it looks like it's time for another rebuild on my engine and the current plan is to do a 2056 D-jet build based around the Raby 9590 cam kit from The Type IV Store. I wanted to get some prices for machine work to bring the heads up to snuff as they have well over 200K miles worth of heat cycles on them. So far it seems the costs range from $450 for a basic rebuild of the pair from Rimco to $2700 from The Type IV Store for their tasty 914 2.0 replacement RS+ heads. Needless to say that's quite a range and this is my first engine build so I'm unsure how to proceed.

Although I can stretch the budget for the RS heads, it just means the build will take much longer as that accounts for the lion's share of my original budget. So my question to the forum is, what would you do in my position and why?

Thanks,

John

So your engine is dead? Is there another reason to rebuild? I guess I am getting at the "if it ain't broke" answer.

I went with HAM. I had a 1.8 and was keeping it. So he fixed me up with head rebuild, valves etc... for @ $1500 a couple years ago. You should call him. The story on re-build heads is that when you are done, you have 40 year old castings.

[Nozzle]

I contacted HAM Inc and was told by Len Hoffman that he was moving away from the rebuilding of original equipment heads and he wasn't taking any new rebuild business. He suggested I go with the new castings offered by The Type IV Store. His point was spending $1500-2000 on 40 year old heads was not smart given that new casting were only $500 more than a head that needed no repairs. Similar logic to be found on the Aircooled Technology site not surprisingly. Maybe that's just the cost of doing business with rebuilding these engines in this day and age? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[r_towle]

European Motorworks are super helpful on the phone, sell parts at a decent price, seem to love the type 4 motor, and offer machine shop services.

http://www.europeanmotorworks.com/vw/machine-shop

Rich

[Elliot Cannon]

European Motorworks are super helpful on the phone, sell parts at a decent price, seem to love the type 4 motor, and offer machine shop services.

http://www.europeanmotorworks.com/vw/machine-shop

Rich

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)
I just had mine done at this place. They also can make twin plug heads for the type four.

[Jake Raby]

I contacted HAM Inc and was told by Len Hoffman that he was moving away from the rebuilding of original equipment heads and he wasn't taking any new rebuild business. He suggested I go with the new castings offered by The Type IV Store. His point was spending $1500-2000 on 40 year old heads was not smart given that new casting were only $500 more than a head that needed no repairs. Similar logic to be found on the Aircooled Technology site not surprisingly. Maybe that's just the cost of doing business with rebuilding these engines in this day and age? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Some of us understand that castings have a service life and that time is not their friend. We have not emptied "used" castings with our engines in this Millennium. I have stacks and stacks of heads just sitting here, because we never do anything with them.

You are time and money ahead to go with new castings.

[lonewolfe]

Here's another option for brand new heads for considerably less money than the others you mentioned. Now, I know that the HAM heads are fantastic by all accounts but they are also super expensive. DRD Racing Heads is well known and has a very good reputation in the VW world so I would consider them as another good option for a Type IV motor. They've been around for years. Like HAM, these heads are based on brand new AMC castings from Spain.

http://www.drdracingheads.com/xcart/Type-4...-and-Parts.html

[Shindog1961]

These are VW heads, with some differences in the 2.0. VW shops seem to charge a lot less. Check out Hot VW's magazine I bet you could find someone to do a type IV for a lot less if price is an issue.

[Jake Raby]

Here's another option for brand new heads for considerably less money than the others you mentioned. Now, I know that the HAM heads are fantastic by all accounts but they are also super expensive. DRD Racing Heads is well known and has a very good reputation in the VW world so I would consider them as another good option for a Type IV motor. They've been around for years. Like HAM, these heads are based on brand new AMC castings from Spain.

http://www.drdracingheads.com/xcart/Type-4...-and-Parts.html

You are not comparing apples to apples. The heads that you linked are nothing more than new AMC castings using AMC hardware, valves, seats and guides.

The quality of those components is sub-marginal and routinely fail. The "Expensive HAM Heads" feature all upgraded hardware, to include valve seats. The AMC heads that HAM creates are basically "reconstructed" right out of the box, hence their costs.

I have had AMC supplied hardware fail, and when it occurred we stopped using it altogether and replaced the components with our own/ HAM. Last year we literally threw away two 55 gallon drums of valves, springs and etc from new AMC heads that were pulled to be replaced. The castings are great, the hardware is horrible.

I just wanted to set the record straight and point out that the comparison wasn't accurate at all. I will also state that I have worked with DRD and the very first pair of T4 heads they ever created were for me. I am speaking from experience from both providers.

You will get exactly what you pay for.... Or it may take you a year to get something that you were promised in two weeks or months, or you may never receive what you bought at all. Google is your friend.

[Mark Henry]

I know this stuff was bad in the past, but I thought AMC had now improved the quality of their stock hardware.

I agree that you would have to change valves, seats and guides for a performance build, you would do this as a matter of course anyways.
Wouldn't DR have to replace this stuff on it's bigger than stock valve heads?

[ThePaintedMan]

I have had AMC supplied hardware fail, and when it occurred we stopped using it altogether and replaced the components with our own/ HAM. Last year we literally threw away two 55 gallon drums of valves, springs and etc from new AMC heads that were pulled to be replaced. The castings are great, the hardware is horrible.

Hey Jake,

Just out of curiosity, have you or Len ever considered buying just the blank castings from AMC in bulk and putting your own hardware in them? Perhaps knocking some of the of cost down and saving (a little) work, and then reselling them? AMC seems like they're on the right track, they just need a little experience from experts.

[TJB/914]

Here's another option for brand new heads for considerably less money than the others you mentioned. Now, I know that the HAM heads are fantastic by all accounts but they are also super expensive. DRD Racing Heads is well known and has a very good reputation in the VW world so I would consider them as another good option for a Type IV motor. They've been around for years. Like HAM, these heads are based on brand new AMC castings from Spain.

http://www.drdracingheads.com/xcart/Type-4...-and-Parts.html

You are not comparing apples to apples. The heads that you linked are nothing more than new AMC castings using AMC hardware, valves, seats and guides.

The quality of those components is sub-marginal and routinely fail. The "Expensive HAM Heads" feature all upgraded hardware, to include valve seats. The AMC heads that HAM creates are basically "reconstructed" right out of the box, hence their costs.

I have had AMC supplied hardware fail, and when it occurred we stopped using it altogether and replaced the components with our own/ HAM. Last year we literally threw away two 55 gallon drums of valves, springs and etc from new AMC heads that were pulled to be replaced. The castings are great, the hardware is horrible.

I just wanted to set the record straight and point out that the comparison wasn't accurate at all. I will also state that I have worked with DRD and the very first pair of T4 heads they ever created were for me. I am speaking from experience from both providers.

You will get exactly what you pay for.... Or it may take you a year to get something that you were promised in two weeks or months, or you may never receive what you bought at all. Google is your friend.

914er's Listen up, good advise. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)

I agree with Jake & Ham. I purchased new heads from Jake on my motor rebuild a few years ago & it's a great worry free product. Best money you will ever spend.

My Farmer Grand Dad used to say, "Cheap is Expensive in the Long Run". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Tom

[Harpo]

I can attest to the quality of the components in the Type 4 store (HAM) heads. Top notch stuff

David

[Dave_Darling]

Just out of curiosity, have you or Len ever considered buying just the blank castings from AMC in bulk and putting your own hardware in them?

I talked to AMC at SEMA one year, shortly after they started importing their heads. They would not sell the heads bare--I couldn't get a reason why out of them, but they simply would not sell the heads without hardware.

--DD

[Jake Raby]

We have bought the heads bare in the past, BUT they charged MORE for them! We've found that buying them complete and then scrapping the sub-marginal parts is the best way to go.

There's been times we sold all the valves and hardware to competitors.. They love cheap parts and don't know the difference in quality anyway. Once we sold a whole 55 gallon drum of valves to another shop for what they were worth in scrap. Nothing like throwing away new parts and being happy to watch them rust.

[patrick3000]

I see that you are in the Mid-Atlantic area. If it were my engine I would contact these guys about rebuilding your head. FYI they are much better in person than over the phone.

Dicks Autohaus
210 Centreville Rd, Queenstown, MD
(410) 827-6501

While you are at it I would also look into having the rotating assembly balanced by these guys. They can also cut your flywheel if needed.

Burtonsville Performance Machine Service
5210 Minnick Rd, Laurel, MD
(301) 490-3131

Good luck with your project.

[Nozzle]

I see that you are in the Mid-Atlantic area. If it were my engine I would contact these guys about rebuilding your head. FYI they are much better in person than over the phone.

Dicks Autohaus
210 Centreville Rd, Queenstown, MD
(410) 827-6501

While you are at it I would also look into having the rotating assembly balanced by these guys. They can also cut your flywheel if needed.

Burtonsville Performance Machine Service
5210 Minnick Rd, Laurel, MD
(301) 490-3131

Good luck with your project.

Thanks very much Karl. Very hard to find reliable machine shops in the Maryland area that know how to or even want to work on type 4 components... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Now if you were talking about drag race, circle track or marine V-8 engines then there's lots to choose from.

[HAM Inc]

Speaking for my company the only way we were going to be able to remain a T4 based cylinder head company was to accept a lot of sub-par cores for service. I hate to see the T4 market go the way it has, but that's beyond my control. It's true that our new heads are the most expensive in the business. There's a reason for that and I don't need to go into that here.
The effort that's required to re-manufacture (not merely rebuild) a pair of old castings to achieve the level of quality we insist on was becoming more and more time consuming as the overall quality of cores steadily decreased.

8 years ago we stopped working with any used bus heads. A few years ago we stopped working with used 1.8 heads, then it was all used non "Q" 1.7's. Next the supply of good 1.7 "Q" heads dwindled and we stopped dealing with them. For the past 3 years the only used heads we have worked with were 2.0 914, and we would not accept any that didn't meet criteria outlined on my web-site. Over 75% didn't.
http://www.hamincgroup.com/blog/porsche/91...-service-policy

I am currently working a batch of 4 pairs used 2.0 914 heads. Each pair is totally virgin, never touched by another shop and are from customers willing to wait til we had enough for a production run. It took 6 months to get 4 pairs. That's not a winning formula for business growth. This will be the last batch of these that we do for the foreseeable future.

With our new plug and play 2.0 914 replacements, which we are doing the first production run of now for Raby turnkey engines, that will be the future of our T4 head work. Yes they are expensive, but they are superior to not only used heads, but any other T4 offering out there.

[72hardtop]

You have 2 choices when it comes to Type-4 heads...

1. Len Hoffman

2. Adrian - Headflow Masters