Question for sway bar/suspension Guru's, show me your sway bars |
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Question for sway bar/suspension Guru's, show me your sway bars |
rick 918-S |
Mar 12 2005, 07:33 AM
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#1
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Hey nice rack! -Celette Group: Members Posts: 20,473 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Now in Superior WI Member No.: 43 Region Association: Northstar Region |
My car has a push at high speed in tight corners. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/driving.gif) It wants to slide the front to the outside of the circle. I need to increase front grip. I was talking to a local car guy here and he told me I should has a big rear sway bar. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/confused24.gif) I tend to believe him. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/idea.gif) He used to work for the Archer Brothers in their race shop. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smash.gif) But maybe his theory doesn't apply to middle motor cars. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/screwy.gif)
Who has experience with this? Show me your sway bars. Specially rear ones. Oh ya, what about tire pressure. I encourage long explainations. But talk to me like I'm a 4th grader. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/blink.gif) |
eeyore |
Mar 12 2005, 10:03 AM
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#2
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 889 Joined: 8-January 04 From: meridian, id Member No.: 1,533 Region Association: None |
The way this swaybar thing was explained to me was:
The more compliant (softer) end of the car has load distributed more evenly between the inside and outside 'tiars' -- more grip. The harder end puts more load on a single 'tiar', causing it to come unstuck sooner. Since the front is pushing (sliding first), it has a higher spring rate. The options are 1) Decrease the spring rate in the front either by changing out torsion bars, or softening up the swaybar by moving the droplinks farther out on the adjuster arm. or 2) Increase spring rate in the rear by adding heavier springs, or adding a swaybar. Heavier springs is probably easier. You don't necessarily need a rear swaybar. I took my 914 from stable, to extremely tail-slide happy by using 200lb springs in the rear. This has since been fixed by adding a Tarett bar in the front. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/aktion035.gif) |
rick 918-S |
Mar 12 2005, 10:15 AM
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#3
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Hey nice rack! -Celette Group: Members Posts: 20,473 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Now in Superior WI Member No.: 43 Region Association: Northstar Region |
Ok that makes sense. As a note to the first post. I have no sway bars front or rear, stock torsion bars and springs, stock tie rod ends.
I think the 928 motor is causing a higher center of gravity change the polar moment. I have a set of 180 lb rear springs. I think I'll try them first. I may like to install a rear bar as well. What about tire pressure? |
SirAndy |
Mar 12 2005, 01:12 PM
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#4
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Resident German Group: Admin Posts: 41,669 Joined: 21-January 03 From: Oakland, Kalifornia Member No.: 179 Region Association: Northern California |
easy to remember:
- if the front is lose, tighten the rear - if the rear is lose, tighten the front you can tighten by adding more sway bar (dial in more or go bigger on the bar) or increase spring rates. Springs: for the front, that would be bigger torsion bars, for the rear, that would be heavier springs. Sway Bars: to tighten the front, move the droplinks towards the rear of the car. to loosen the front, move the droplinks towards the front of the car. if you don't already have a rear sway bar, adding one will tighten the rear. it's the equivalent of adding more spring rate to the rear. also, if the front is pushing (understeer) and you don't have the option of going stiffer in the rear, you can loosen the front bar (make it softer) which is the equivalent of tightening the rear ... easy, eh? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beer3.gif) Andy |
Trekkor |
Mar 12 2005, 02:40 PM
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#5
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I do things... Group: Members Posts: 7,809 Joined: 2-December 03 From: Napa, Ca Member No.: 1,413 Region Association: Northern California |
OK Attached image(s) |
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Trekkor |
Mar 12 2005, 02:41 PM
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#6
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I do things... Group: Members Posts: 7,809 Joined: 2-December 03 From: Napa, Ca Member No.: 1,413 Region Association: Northern California |
rear is stock bar, 150# springs on Koni's
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Aaron Cox |
Mar 12 2005, 02:42 PM
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#7
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Professional Lawn Dart Group: Retired Admin Posts: 24,541 Joined: 1-February 03 From: OC Member No.: 219 Region Association: Southern California |
yup. im running a stock rear bar with 140's..... a tad too much oversteer at speed ....so i need to dial in more sway bar in the front
im throwing on 180 lb springs and 21mm torsionbars.... because i dont lik emy brake dive and throttle squat.... |
Andyrew |
Mar 12 2005, 02:45 PM
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#8
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Spooling.... Please wait Group: Members Posts: 13,376 Joined: 20-January 03 From: Riverbank, Ca Member No.: 172 Region Association: Northern California |
Isnt a stock sway bar about 40 lbs of suspension force about? In relation to spring rates??
I was thinking of going with 225lb springs, or 180lb with a stock or adjustable sway bar on the rear.. My front is way to tight for the rest of my suspension... lol Andrew |
Trekkor |
Mar 12 2005, 02:46 PM
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#9
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I do things... Group: Members Posts: 7,809 Joined: 2-December 03 From: Napa, Ca Member No.: 1,413 Region Association: Northern California |
front (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif)
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif) 31mm Schmart KT Attached image(s) |
Aaron Cox |
Mar 12 2005, 02:50 PM
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#10
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Professional Lawn Dart Group: Retired Admin Posts: 24,541 Joined: 1-February 03 From: OC Member No.: 219 Region Association: Southern California |
T dog,
what t bars you running? i got me some 180 springs....need to find some beefier t bars...... |
ArtechnikA |
Mar 12 2005, 02:53 PM
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#11
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rich herzog Group: Members Posts: 7,390 Joined: 4-April 03 From: Salted Roads, PA Member No.: 513 Region Association: None |
tire pressures:
a fine-tuning device to be tinkered with after the suspension is fundamentally balanced. |
Trekkor |
Mar 12 2005, 02:57 PM
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#12
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I do things... Group: Members Posts: 7,809 Joined: 2-December 03 From: Napa, Ca Member No.: 1,413 Region Association: Northern California |
Stock... KT |
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Aaron Cox |
Mar 12 2005, 02:58 PM
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#13
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Professional Lawn Dart Group: Retired Admin Posts: 24,541 Joined: 1-February 03 From: OC Member No.: 219 Region Association: Southern California |
brake dive central? or you firm up them konis real gud (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/cool.gif) |
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Trekkor |
Mar 12 2005, 03:02 PM
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#14
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I do things... Group: Members Posts: 7,809 Joined: 2-December 03 From: Napa, Ca Member No.: 1,413 Region Association: Northern California |
Some of my findings: Falkens- 41psi rear/39psi front Yokohama A032R- 35psi rear/33psi front Hoosier R3S03- 26psi rear/24psi front ( may go lower ) KT |
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Trekkor |
Mar 12 2005, 03:05 PM
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#15
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I do things... Group: Members Posts: 7,809 Joined: 2-December 03 From: Napa, Ca Member No.: 1,413 Region Association: Northern California |
Koni's full firm. Here's full brakes at 70mph. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif) KT Attached image(s) |
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gaz914 |
Mar 12 2005, 04:33 PM
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 67 Joined: 6-March 04 From: Sydney, Australia Member No.: 1,758 Region Association: None |
To complicate the matter a little more for you Rick, understeer can often be cured by adding a front sway bar - contrary to the advice above.
The reason is to do with the camber change that happens due to the body roll when cornering. Particularly with wider tyres, the tyre no longer sits "flat" on the road when the body rolls excessively and of course the grip generated is less. By adding a sway bar to the front, the camber change may be limited to such an extent that the actual grip generated is better than before, despite the added weight transfer that should make less grip. That is: PLUS grip via less camber change > MINUS grip via weight transfer. If the front bar is too large (in combination with the spring rate) then more understeer may be the result. In your situation, I would consider trying a small-ish (standard?) sway bar for the front first to control the body roll/camber change. If the understeer is not reduced sufficiently or is worse, then a rear bar would be needed, experimenting with and without the front bar connected. GAZ |
jim912928 |
Mar 12 2005, 04:43 PM
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#17
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,485 Joined: 8-January 04 From: Granger, IN Member No.: 1,536 Region Association: Upper MidWest |
Rick,
I put factory sway bars on my front and rear....made a huge difference in driving it on the street. Haven't AX it yet...but it sure made a huge difference on normal twisty roads! I've been told you can run with a front sway bar and no rear...but I've always been told not to run with a rear sway bar unless you have a front one installed. |
rick 918-S |
Mar 12 2005, 06:51 PM
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#18
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Hey nice rack! -Celette Group: Members Posts: 20,473 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Now in Superior WI Member No.: 43 Region Association: Northstar Region |
Thanks for all your suggestions. I'm taking it all in.
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TravisNeff |
Mar 12 2005, 08:31 PM
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#19
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 5,082 Joined: 20-March 03 From: Mesa, AZ Member No.: 447 Region Association: Southwest Region |
Here we go, 22mm Welt sway bar. Watch out for the duct tape, someone drilled a hole too low.
22mm Sway Bar 22mm Torsion Bars Welt street bushings New ball joints Turbo tie rods (cheapie, non castellated nut ones) Cleaned and regreased rack New Rotors, bearings & rebuilt calipers Koni Sport Shocks Rear, Koni Sport Shocks 150lb springs on threaded perches New Rotors, pads I am sure with this setup I will need 180-200lb springs. Old car if pushed would oversteer without the front sway bar and 150 lb springs. Attached image(s) |
TravisNeff |
Mar 12 2005, 08:31 PM
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#20
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 5,082 Joined: 20-March 03 From: Mesa, AZ Member No.: 447 Region Association: Southwest Region |
uno mas
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