if we all agree turbos are less reliable long term... Options

[dflesburg]

If we all agree that turbo cars are less reliable long term, then how do the new 2017 models stand a chance in lasting 20-40 years or more?

constant rebuilds?

jack stands?

anyone have a thought?

[matthepcat]

Turbo whats?

Modern turbo cars in general with good owners last a long time.

Example: Subaru WRX with a good owner can go 250,000 miles with no rebuild easy.

[BeemerSteve]

My 1997 Ford F-250 7.3 powerstroke is still returning very hard service for me still after 250,000 miles. Of course I change the oil every 3-5 thousand miles religiously! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

[brant]

my opinion about modern cars is that they do last a long time
probably 250K is about the norm, for a well cared for new car

but look at the depreciation rates of new cars
I have one right now (a Volvo) that I'm trying to sell for a family member

one or two small-ish service jobs on it, would cost more than its worth. I don't think any of these modern cars are going to be around after 20 years if they are actually used (as opposed to museum pieces)

you can't afford to do normal maintenance services at 200,000 miles due to the parts costing more than the whole vehicle.

example:
the 2001 Volvo I'm working on has a small electric motor built into the throttle body due to its "fly by wire" throttle cable

the throttle body can be bought aftermarket for the wonderfully cheaper price of 700-1100$
but it requires taking throttle body to a dealer and having its software reprogrammed so it interfaces with your car. Used ones have the same problem and also have to have a software wipe and then reboot to match your vin/vehicle
I doubt Volvo will be releasing its software any time soon.

so after $1500, you can have a working throttle body (if the sensor in the throttle pedal isn't bad also)

by the way the book on this car is about 2k currently

my daily beater is an old mazda protégé. I can buy a throttle body all day long for 30$ used for that car and bolt it in myself for the price of a gasket

they are appliances now.... really
even a boxter with needing a motor rebuild due to IMS bearings is a total

[Mueller]

If we all agree that turbo cars are less reliable long term, then how do the new 2017 models stand a chance in lasting 20-40 years or more?

constant rebuilds?

jack stands?

anyone have a thought?

Going on 18 years on our '98 Volvo turbo and there are plenty of even older turbo cars still running.

Turbos add a few more maintenance items and they will increase the cost of ownership over an N/A motor, but it is nothing that should be deal breaker.

[Tom_T]

It's not so much the Turbos which will cause planned obsolescance of modern cars - but all of the electronics & computers in them to both make them perform mechanically, as well as for all of our "gadgets"!

Once the mandatory 10 or 15 year factory support of replacement parts passes, it will become harder then impossible to get replacement parts - even for the little stuff.

A few weeks ago I go THE last in the USA/NA part - Info. Center PC board for my `85 BMW 325e - & many others are NLA on it, & for our our 88 Westy & just think of what we have to do to keep our 914's ECUs working right.

How the heck will we keep up on 100's of PC Boards & ECUs!!?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

WE can't just have an Electronic-genius version of Mark W./Mikey914 crank out a few at a future E-914Rubber.com!!

Heck - aftermarket Audio/Nav unit makers cannot even make their unit work properly in the 08 Cayenne S I looked at a few weeks ago, wherein the rear camera opened & closed every time any door or rear hatch opened or closed - & it was supposedly made exclusively for it's Bose Audio/Nav/PCM unit! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

BTW - I'm only looking at normally aspirated Cayenne S V8's so I don't have the complications & added expense of a turbo engine, & without the problematic & future NLA air suspension (GTS also has the Air Susp.).

So that's my 2 cents IMHO! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Cheers! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
///////

[brooks944]

I had a 944 Turbo for 12 years. Never had a turbo problem, did AX and DE's and sold it for what I bought it for and it had 212k miles. Daily driver for five or six years. It was a rare non-sunroof car but still a great experience.

[Andyrew]

Turbo reliability was a problem 30 years ago. Not any more.

On factory tuning turbos can last as long as the engines themselves given proper warm up/cool down procedures.

Many new cars have mutiple boost settings for warm up and some cars have cool down pumps, both together will eliminate those small issues.


The bigger issues for reliability are direct injection engines. The oil buildup on the back of the valves is becoming a huge problem.

[DBCooper]

Interesting reading this, I've had the same discussion with friends and with people in the electronics industry. The conclusion there is the same as here, that the electronics maintenance problems for old cars will be too expensive or impossible to overcome, so off to the scrapyard.

Obviously that's cheery news for auto manufactures, but there's something even more interesting there for owners of old cars. Old cars will tend to keep on running, generally unaffected by problems with electronics. Well, those that don't rust away, anyway. As that continues over time there will be a widening gap between our "non-electronic" cars and the oldest of the functioning "electronics" cars. So bonus, that often times pain in the ass you have out in the garage will become even more special than it is today, be known as one of the "runs always and forever" cars.

[brant]

I think a set of 6 high pressure fuel injectors for my dodge diesel is around $2500

luckily I haven't had to do that job yet, but its only a matter of time
and in 20 years, they probably won't make that specific model of injector anyways, as it was only used a few years until the newer, even higher pressure injectors are in use now....

[slotty008]

I had a BMW 530d for 9 years; The turbo blew up after 6 years and 64000 miles just entering the Gotthardt tunnel in Switzerland (10 mile tunnel one way each direction with lots of traffic)I managed to get trough the tunnel at 40 mph and then put the car aside,
600 miles from home. I can assure you that at that time I was furious. Decided never to buy a turbo car again. My atmospheric 325i that I had before did 120000 miles without any problem. It didn' t even consume a drop of oil.
The problem is that ALL cars in Europe have turbo's now. My BMW 320d will have to go after 5 years . I just don't trust it.
I wanted to buy a Cayman before they change to turbo's but it doesn't give me the same kick as an old 911 or a 914.
And we still have an atmospheric six cilinder Z4. Beautiful engine!

[Bulldog9]

I think 'more complex' is a better description, thus more potentials. With Oil Advances, better turbo management and cooling, turbos are more reliable than ever. I put over 350K miles on a 1982 Saab Turbo. Had APC, but only oil cooled, no water jacket. I bought it in 1990, and the owner told me to let it warm up before getting into it and letting the engine idle and letting it cool after driving would keep the oil from cokeing and clogging up the journals and bearings. One day at an autocross/track event we popped the hood because of a little steam puff from under the hood, and the turbo was GLOWING..... Drove it on the stock turbo and never cracked the cases other than a blown tranny in 2000 until 2004 when I got back from Iraq and bought a 9-3 Viggin (TOTAL POS)... Still miss that car and a C-900 Turbo is on my 'hunt list' for someday.

Point being, if you take care of it, change the oil, treat it well, unless there is a design flaw or part failure/defect, it will last as long as the rest of the car.

The Wife and I were talking about the 918 (**EDIT 718) as my 'retirement gift ' from the Army. Was the first time she has said NO in a while.... First, you already have a Porsche why do you need two....... Second, I DO like the idea of a convertible, so how about the BMW M6 Convertible...... After I explained I could likely buy 2 718's for the cost of an M6, we temporarily agreed on an M4 Convertible, but I'm just gonna bring the 718 Home one day and she will love it..... ;-) Of course that is still 4-5 years away.

[Chris914n6]

I think most of the OEM turbos are ceramic ball bearing and the seals are pretty high grade. So nothing stands out as inherently less reliable. Biggest problem is the sorting out the newer technology, like high pressure injectors. Nothing is going to do 250k without intervention into something, being carbon buildup or deteriorated seals.

I've worked on many 20-something high mile cars and the engine is really a small part of what makes it junk worthy. All the rubber is deteriorated, like susp bushings, window seals, drivetrain seals, caliper seals. Add wear and tear to the interior and paint, plus advancements in safety technology. Revitalizing an older car doesn't make sense.

Stay away from Volvos haha.
Nissan has a built in auto-calibrate for the TB and there are so many of them that they are $50 on ebay or 200ish aftermarket.
BMW 335i, factory recalls on hp injectors and the hp fuel pump. Rebuilt injector $140 at Autozone, $20 for the OBD to USB cable, software to enter the new values into the ecu free on internet.

If it is a high failure part, the aftermarket steps in eventually.

[ThePaintedMan]

Surely you mean a 718?!? Otherwise I need to enlist in the Army pronto.

[Mike Bellis]

It comes down to modern fuel and spark/knock management. This is why the engines last. They make it DAPO proof (almost).

[Cracker]

Just replaced all six injectors last Saturday in my Dodge Brant...$2700 with new fuel tubes/filters...kinda sucked but beats the alternative. What mileage are you at? I just hit 123...

Tony

I think a set of 6 high pressure fuel injectors for my dodge diesel is around $2500

luckily I haven't had to do that job yet, but its only a matter of time
and in 20 years, they probably won't make that specific model of injector anyways, as it was only used a few years until the newer, even higher pressure injectors are in use now....

[Bulldog9]

Surely you mean a 718?!? Otherwise I need to enlist in the Army pronto.

Haha yes........... wishful typing.. I mean the new 4CYL Boxter, 718

[Mueller]

Interesting reading this, I've had the same discussion with friends and with people in the electronics industry. The conclusion there is the same as here, that the electronics maintenance problems for old cars will be too expensive or impossible to overcome, so off to the scrapyard.

Obviously that's cheery news for auto manufactures, but there's something even more interesting there for owners of old cars. Old cars will tend to keep on running, generally unaffected by problems with electronics. Well, those that don't rust away, anyway. As that continues over time there will be a widening gap between our "non-electronic" cars and the oldest of the functioning "electronics" cars. So bonus, that often times pain in the ass you have out in the garage will become even more special than it is today, be known as one of the "runs always and forever" cars.

Already happening in the Manufacturing segment. I repair CNC machining equipment along with wafer process equipment (assemblies that sputter/deposit or etch silicon wafers).

Generally the mechanical parts are still good after 20+ years but the electronics are getting harder to find when parts go up in smoke due to abuse or just from being turned on for 24/7 for years and years.

Luckily for a customer a few months ago I was able to source some oddball small capacitors from a company I found via google that buys and sells surplus electronic parts. This was to repair their -10K voltage supply unit to get it back into service, the parts only cost .50cents each, I needed 10 but had to buy like 100. Still cheaper than buying a rebuilt unit for $7000 or upgrading the machine for about $50K!

The next machine might not be so lucky, we've sent some really, really nice CNC mills and lathes to the salvage yard due to obsolete electronics. Sure they can be retrofitted but still very expensive and usually not very cost effective when you count the labor to do so.

At least for cars depending on what electronic part failed there should be some hope...who knows maybe in 20 years Megasquirt will come to the rescue to get an '03 GT3 back on the road if a Bosch ecu isn't available anymore (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[brant]

Just replaced all six injectors last Saturday in my Dodge Brant...$2700 with new fuel tubes/filters...kinda sucked but beats the alternative. What mileage are you at? I just hit 123...

Tony

I think a set of 6 high pressure fuel injectors for my dodge diesel is around $2500

luckily I haven't had to do that job yet, but its only a matter of time
and in 20 years, they probably won't make that specific model of injector anyways, as it was only used a few years until the newer, even higher pressure injectors are in use now....

Hard to say. 99percent of my highway miles are with the trailer on. So I don't have good data for mileage


But I know its down at least 1mpg in the last year or so
Starting to get nervous about it

Did you see a big improvement sense swapping them out?
Were you smoking a lot before the job?
I'm not smoking yet

[Cracker]

Brant - No odometer??? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

No I wasn't smoking...I fell into limp mode about 3 months ago just running along minding my own business. It turned out I had one injector that was problematic and would result in small occasional hunting at low speeds and a stumble in the idle about every 15-20 seconds.

After looking a new (er) trucks and not wanting to spend $50G's I decided to restore my
07 (new bumpers, new paint, all new injectors, grill, mirrors, seats, etc). $7500 into a 9 year old truck I plan to drive NOW another 5 years.

YES. The engine is SMOOTH, no stumble, hunting gone, it worked.

Tony