Fat Performance Engine Rebuilders, 911 vs 914 Comparison- A Great Read Options

[914_7T3]

Enjoy the Below Blog

http://fatperformance.com/home/?p=681

[Tom_T]

Enjoy the Below Blog

http://fatperformance.com/home/?p=681

Interesting Comparo - Thanx!

I'd heard that Ron was retiring & the FAT shop was closing sometime soon - is this not true, or has the plan changed & Greg is continuing while Ron goes off to sip Margaritas (IMG:style_emoticons/default/drunk.gif) ?

Cheers! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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[mepstein]

The post is a year old. Good chance the 914 engine was built 18+ months ago. If I was going to spend $20K for an engine install, it would have to have 6 cylinders.

[Tom_T]

The post is a year old. Good chance the 914 engine was built 18+ months ago. If I was going to spend $20K for an engine install, it would have to have 6 cylinders.

Nevertheless Mark, the FAT website isn't showing any announcement of a closing date - ergo my question to the OP, who is at least here in SoCal - & the date of the article is meaningless to my question. You're in NY, I'm right in Orange where FAT is - so your post added no answer nor useful info to my query.

As for a 6 vs 4 - even Raby (who learned from Ron & Gary) feels that you can get the same power with less weight from a spiked T-IV - not to mention much easier to work on in the tight 914 engine bay - than a 6.

If one were to try something new & different, IMHO a new 718 or 718S TT flat 4 waterboxer would be more interesting - than just slapping in yet another Porsche 6 or Subie! I'm sure some wrecked Boxster/Cayman 718 donors will be turning up ove time shortly! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

But spend your hypothetical check where & how you want! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

Anyone who really knows anything about FAT know if the are in fact still closing? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Otherwise I can call or run by next week.

Happy Memorial Weekend to All Y'all & Remember our Servicepeople past & present. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/flag.gif)

PS - per Mark Henry's correction noted - you're in PA/DE - still rust belt. ;-)
.... I was fortunate to have fled the rust belt in `63 when my Dad got his new job in San Diego!

My point was that my question about the FAT closing or sale (per Bruce) is better answered by a local who knows the FAT people - not someone across the USA. It is also poignant to the OP, since he's considering a FAT built motor.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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[flmont]

The last I ever knew,.it was going to be sold,..and stay open under the FAT....name.

[914_7T3]

Enjoy the Below Blog

http://fatperformance.com/home/?p=681

Interesting Comparo - Thanx!

I'd heard that Ron was retiring & the FAT shop was closing sometime soon - is this not true, or has the plan changed & Greg is continuing while Ron goes off to sip Margaritas (IMG:style_emoticons/default/drunk.gif) ?

Cheers! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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I have no Intel on this shop. Came across their website when searching for engine rebuilders. Seems that my car is burning oil on deceleration during spirited canyon drives.

Could be the valve guides, so researching my options for a rebuild once the car gets torn down for paint at some point in the future.

Will definitely keep the original type IV motor, but maybe up HP without going too crazy.

[somd914]

I have a Fat Performance 2258 in the Revenna green car, very sweet motor. Purchase price six years ago as a turnkey engine, not a build on a core, was $12k, compliments of the PO - cheap easy upgrade compared to a six conversion with a fresh motor. The silver car is a 2056, dual Webers. Agree, both are an improvement over the underpowered stock engines, but opinions vary...

I haven't put much time on the 2258 as I purchased the car as an almost completed project car last year. Of course at the same time my employer decided it was time to get busy again and the project is coming along slowly, hopefully by the end of summer. Then I can do a fair comparison against my Carrera.

But as pointed out in the article, the cars are different. I agree the 911 is more refined, and the Fabspeed exhaust note is intoxicating. But then again, I enjoy the raw sound of the Webers behind my head. Different worlds, different pleasures, all good...

[bdstone914]

Rimco is buying FAT, Greg is staying on for a period to assist in the transition. I speak with Greg often and he is anxious to wild down his decades of engine building.
Bruce

[GeorgeRud]

The comparison is interesting. I'm fortunate enough to have an original factory -6, a converted, flared -6 conversion with a Supertec built 2.7, and a 911 Carrera 3.2.

The original -6 definitely feels the lightest (really an adult's go cart), the 3.2 Carrera the most luxuriest (though with too many electric motors running everything), but the 2.7 conversion is the real beast. 200 rwhp in a mid engined chassis will put a big smile on anyone's face and the increased torque of the 2.7 makes it a breeze to drive.

They're all different but I'd have a tough time parting with any of them!

[Mark Henry]

The post is a year old. Good chance the 914 engine was built 18+ months ago. If I was going to spend $20K for an engine install, it would have to have 6 cylinders.

Nevertheless Mark, the FAT website isn't showing any announcement of a closing date - ergo my question to the OP, who is at least here in SoCal - & the date of the article is meaningless to my question. You're in NY, I'm right in Orange where FAT is - so your post added no answer nor useful info to my query.



Tom
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I don't think he was talking to you, he was talking to the OP. He doesn't live in NY and if you knew where he works you would know he has a well informed opinion.

If one were to try something new & different, IMHO a new 718 or 718S TT flat 4 waterboxer would be more interesting - than just slapping in yet another Porsche 6 or Subie! I'm sure some wrecked Boxster/Cayman 718 donors will be turning up ove time shortly! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

Good luck finding one cheap-ish, but it won't fit anyways, it's too wide.

As for a 6 vs 4 - even Raby (who learned from Ron & Gary) feels that you can get the same power with less weight from a spiked T-IV - not to mention much easier to work on in the tight 914 engine bay - than a 6.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) Sorry not even close, I have a $20K type 4 engine in my '67 bug, it a hell of a lot of fun, but 180hp after a couple years is meh...OK and it sounds like a dumptruck.

And lets compare apples to apples you're talking heavily modified 4 to a stock six.
The six I've built for my 914 should be 280hp although I'll be happy with 240-250.

Also a /6 is pure sex and it retains it's value (to a point) compared to a performance /4.

But spend your hypothetical check where & how you want! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

I am and so is Mark (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I wouldn't even consider a /4 for a 914 if I'm spending $20K on an engine upgrade.
...and I may be shooting myself in the foot for saying that as I build them professionally.
Personal opinion type 4 in a 914 is 2270cc 150hp, if you want more time to seriously look at other options.
YMMV
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

[Tom_T]

Rimco is buying FAT, Greg is staying on for a period to assist in the transition. I speak with Greg often and he is anxious to wild down his decades of engine building.
Bruce

Thanx Bruce, that was the skinny I got from some SoCal Baja Bug guys I know around here. Hopefuly RIMCO keeps up Greg's & Ron's high quality.

PS - It sounds like Calvinator may want to get his FAT build sooner, rather than later - while Greg is still there .... just in case the new staff isn't as up to speed right away!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/flag.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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[Tom_T]

Mark, see my comments below inserted into your message in bold-italics, as well as at the bottom after your quotes ....

The post is a year old. Good chance the 914 engine was built 18+ months ago. If I was going to spend $20K for an engine install, it would have to have 6 cylinders.

Nevertheless Mark, the FAT website isn't showing any announcement of a closing date - ergo my question to the OP, who is at least here in SoCal - & the date of the article is meaningless to my question. You're in NY, I'm right in Orange where FAT is - so your post added no answer nor useful info to my query.

Tom
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I don't think he was talking to you, he was talking to the OP. He doesn't live in NY and if you knew where he works you would know he has a well informed opinion.

Corrected to PA/DE at my original post above. Point was whether they were closing as info for the OP considering a built T-IV, so age of the post or info from across the country isn't useful in this case.

Anyone can have an opinion agreeing or contrary, which doesn't negate either one. I know that he does front office at a Porsche resto shop. I quoted two guys doing T-IV builds & other VWs/etc. for Baja 500/1000 competition - also qualified opinions.

Mark H, your experience is likewise well informed, but there are others who still favor the T-IV

If one were to try something new & different, IMHO a new 718 or 718S TT flat 4 waterboxer would be more interesting - than just slapping in yet another Porsche 6 or Subie! I'm sure some wrecked Boxster/Cayman 718 donors will be turning up ove time shortly! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

Good luck finding one cheap-ish, but it won't fit anyways, it's too wide.

I said interesting - NOT cheap! They'll come up as wrecked cars with time, & they also said that the 908 flat-8 motor wouldn't fit in the 914-8, but Porsche did do it. I'm sure that some smart 914-Resto-modder will figure out a way to make that 718/718-S motor fit into a 914 - with a combination of body/chassis mods & repackaging some of the motor components, & modifying the rear suspension to a wider stance/clearance, etc. as necessary. Certainly not cheap, but also not undoable, as you suggest. There is always a way, where there is a will & ample bank account!

Another interesting build with unlimited budget would be to source an original 908 flat-8 & to a 914-8 Tribute car! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

As for a 6 vs 4 - even Raby (who learned from Ron & Gary) feels that you can get the same power with less weight from a spiked T-IV - not to mention much easier to work on in the tight 914 engine bay - than a 6.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) Sorry not even close, I have a $20K type 4 engine in my '67 bug, it a hell of a lot of fun, but 180hp after a couple years is meh...OK and it sounds like a dumptruck.

And lets compare apples to apples you're talking heavily modified 4 to a stock six.
The six I've built for my 914 should be 280hp although I'll be happy with 240-250.

Also a /6 is pure sex and it retains it's value (to a point) compared to a performance /4.

Well certainly NOT laughable Mark, as Greg & Ron have been in the business for a long time (longer than you), & are respected builders.

However, all of your points are duly noted Mark, but I & they make the counterpoint that the T-IV is a great option with less weight, as did folks like Ron/Greg when I spoke to them personally face-to-face. FAT has built race T-IVs up to 2770+cc & 250-350+/- HP naturally aspirated.

But spend your hypothetical check where & how you want! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

I am and so is Mark (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I wouldn't even consider a /4 for a 914 if I'm spending $20K on an engine upgrade.
...and I may be shooting myself in the foot for saying that as I build them professionally.
Personal opinion type 4 in a 914 is 2270cc 150hp, if you want more time to seriously look at other options.
YMMV
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

I think you just did shoot your foot a bit Mark! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Before I decided to stick with my stock 2.0 build, I did talk with Ron & Greg about doing a T-IV upbuild on a donor block to preserve my numbers matching 2L (Ron gave great shop tours BTW). We were talking 2056-2270 range, but it was a lot less than $20K plus a rebuildable 2.0 core (2010-11 prices) - so Apples & Oranges if anyone really can get a quality -6 & rebuilt for just $20K including core anyway.

From what I'm hearing around here at shops like FAT, AASE, Brewster, etc. - the T-IVs are running $15-20K+ (+ $1-4K core if needed), depending on the build - whereas -6 build is more like $20-30K + another must do $3-6K+ core always, since you need to get the -6 to build, plus all the -6 conversion parts (assuming it's not going into a factory -6).

So IMHO - there is still a place for a 2056-2270-2550-2770-etc. cc T-IV & still come in with more power & TQ, but for less than a -6.

Also, the flat-6s tend to need to be high revved to get into their TQ band, whereas the -4 tends to have a flatter TQ band which starts at a lower RPM, & is therefore more tractable around town, than a -6.

That was certainly the case for the stock 70-72 2.0 914-6 vs. the stock 73-74 914-2.0 powerplants - that the /4 was much more usable around town - regardless fo the -6's "soundtrack." I too know personally, since I drove several examples both back in 1975 when I was looking for my 914, as well as several other used 70-73 1.7s. 1.8's & the then new 75-76 GC /4 2.0s - before I settled on my 73 2L.

While it may not apply today as much - as it did back in the 1970-80s when I was DDing my 914, especially for a custom built-up T-IV - since I was doing a good deal of XC trips in my 914, my thinking was that I could get a 2.0 fixed at any VW shop on the road in a pinch - whereas the -6 would be harder & need a specialist Porsche shop or dealer.

Another option for the OP - today, if I were to need rebuild my 2L again - then I'd probably just go for a little more HP/TQ using the Euro spec P&Cs (8.0:1 CR, vs. USA 7.6:1), taking it from 91 SAE net/95 SAE gross HP > 100 HP + whatever a good builder can tweak out of it. Rich Bontempi at HPH in Redwood City CA also recco's that build as a nice little upgrade for nothing more than a regular 2L rebuild requiring new P&Cs (no cc increase is involved, just different P&Cs)

Mine has a stock USA spec <10K miles rebuild from my `80-83 rolling resto, which was stored since `6/85 - so I'm hoping it won't need more than a recommissioning & tune-up/hoses/fluids/etc. by my guy who rebuilt it in the 80's - who was Circle Porsche's 914 expert until he started his own shop in `72, & knows how to get the most out of these T-IVs, as well as on other aircooled P/V & watercooled Audis of the 1960's-70's for Circle & at the Austrian V/A/P dealership where he started in the 1960's.

I'm sure that he'd had my 2L turning more than the spec 91/95 HP both before & after the rebuild, based on other 73-74 2Ls that I & others had driven vs mine, as well as his & 3 other guys with them in his shop said (I had a standing offer to buy my 73 2L from them all ;-).

Unfortunately, he won't take on any new customers for aircooled cars, otherwise I'd have recco'd him to all (some of the major shops in the US working on T-IVs are still calling him for advice BTW).

So I would say that my opinion - although contrary to yours & Mark E's - also holds some weight, & is also backed by some very qualified experts on 914s. Ergo worth consideration by the OP & others reading here.

Cheers! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) & (IMG:style_emoticons/default/flag.gif) Memorial Day All!
Tom
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[Tom_T]

PS - What the heck is "YMMV"?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[Rand]

PS - What the heck is "YMMV"?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

If you don't know, and don't want to Google it, your mileage may vary. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Tom_T]

PS - What the heck is "YMMV"?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

If you don't know, and don't want to Google it, your mileage may vary. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Ohhhh-kay! ... I still don't see the relevance!? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

.... even when I googled it, so I asked in case it had some special secret code meaning on here!?

I prefer to just say what I mean upfront, with minimal abbreviations! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/flag.gif)
Tom
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[Rav914]

Ah, the endless /4 and /6 debate. Why not split the difference? Polo powered.

[Tom_T]

I have a Fat Performance 2258 in the Revenna green car, very sweet motor. Purchase price six years ago as a turnkey engine, not a build on a core, was $12k, compliments of the PO - cheap easy upgrade compared to a six conversion with a fresh motor. The silver car is a 2056, dual Webers. Agree, both are an improvement over the underpowered stock engines, but opinions vary...

I haven't put much time on the 2258 as I purchased the car as an almost completed project car last year. Of course at the same time my employer decided it was time to get busy again and the project is coming along slowly, hopefully by the end of summer. Then I can do a fair comparison against my Carrera.

But as pointed out in the article, the cars are different. I agree the 911 is more refined, and the Fabspeed exhaust note is intoxicating. But then again, I enjoy the raw sound of the Webers behind my head. Different worlds, different pleasures, all good...

When Porsche tried to up-refine the 914 into the 916, they found the pricing at $16K too much for the market, & too much competition for the 911 line-up - but would've been great to have had it go to production - especially in 2.7 guise! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

And Rav/Nate points out another interesting option in the Polo flat 4, & I've had a fast ride in a 912-Polo - too cool! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/flag.gif)
Tom
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[SirAndy]

Ah, the endless /4 and /6 debate.

I like my Porch with 6 Cylinders ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com-179-1496088309.1.jpg)

[porschetub]

Ah, the endless /4 and /6 debate. Why not split the difference? Polo powered.

Yep very nice ,a great repower for a 912/911 from what I have read handling is much improved with less weight in the rear,but @ what cost ???.
Could you not rebuild 2 x 911 motors for the cost of one of these considering it is essentially a new engine...don't know.

[Montreal914]

Ah, the endless /4 and /6 debate.

I like my Porch with 6 Cylinders ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com-179-1496088309.1.jpg)

But that's inline 6 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)