T4 frustration, Got me thinking conversion Options

[jeffdon]

I have been plagued by a series of issues over the last few years with getting my T4 running well. Some of it due to my screw ups, some just bad luck.

I keep thinking how nice it would be to have an engine that just starts and runs, and has more power. Subie maybe. But I sure like the couple of Honda V6 conversions I have seen.

Anyone here that has done a conversion and regretted it?

[mepstein]

There are lots of guys who start conversions and never finish them. The car either languishes in a garage for years or gets sold for pennies on the dollar. Before you start one, make sure your skills, timeframe and bank account are up to the task.

[McMark]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) It's a slippery slope and it's easy to have the project get away from you. Often people start too many big tasks at once -- engine swap, add flares, get the car painted, etc. If you don't have unlimited time and budget, focus on single aspects. Tackle the engine conversion first, and even that aspect could be broken down. Just focus on getting the engine (and trans) installed and working, but not 'pretty'. Once it runs and drives with components laying about and wires everywhere, go back and work on tidying up the install.

I understand why most people move as quickly as they possibly can into making the car look good. But always remember if you'd rather have a pretty car stuck in your garage, or an 'ugly' car that runs and drives.

[Elliot Cannon]

I have NOT done a conversion and have NEVER regretted it. I think doing something like a Honda V6 conversion would be much more difficult and require much more skill than getting a type IV running well.

[tygaboy]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) with mepstein and McMark.
And re: budget, you need to be honest with yourself about what you REALLY want to end up with. Things like:
- Are you going with a DIY cooling system or paying for something like Renegade.
- How much time do you want to spend "figuring things out" vs buying a proven solution?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all about jumping into a conversion and I'd say go for it. But go for it with your eyes wide, wide open.

And I see you're in Oakland? Feel free to come up to Petaluma some time and I'd be happy to share my experiences. And you can see one of these projects in person! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[jeffdon]

Yeah, I have started to calm down about it a bit. At one point, I had that thing running really well. No reason it cannot do so again.

My only time frame is that I want the car on the road for Rennsport next year. That gives me a lot of time, and I can rebuild as time and coin become available.

My bottom end should be good. My last fail was my own fault, freezing the cylinders due to water getting into the carbs. At the time, I had no money, and rebuilt using donated P and C's, mixing and matching and having to use spacers under two of the cylinders.

I am runnning webcam 494, stock crank and rods, 96mm pistons. I am leaning towards:

A) Brand new 96mm P and Cs. Go Biral this time on the jugs. Any advantage to fancier (more $$) pistons?

B) while the car is on stands, send out the 40 IDFs for a pro rebuild. Who here does them? I cannot recall. Or should I consider going to mega/micro squirt?

C) Heads - Any advantage to going to larger valves on a 2056? Do not think it will be in the budget too go with brand new castings.

D) what else would ya'll consider?

[jeffdon]

I have NOT done a conversion and have NEVER regretted it. I think doing something like a Honda V6 conversion would be much more difficult and require much more skill than getting a type IV running well.

And I do hate the thought of loosing the frunk.

I once pulled up to a jobsite in the teener that had a crew of Chinese dudes that spoke little english. They were out front on a smoke break, and really looking the 914 over. One asked me if it was an Alfa. Anyhow, I opened the rear trunk, pulling out tools. Then I opened the front, and did the same. THAT got them talking among themselves. The one that spoke a bit of English just had to ask where the engine was.

[McMark]

A) Don't waste your money on Biral or Aluminum cylinders. A 2056 should run plenty cool without the expense.

B) I can do carb rebuilds, but I do a bunch to them and check everything, not just install gasket kits. So it's pricey and you may want to check around.

C) Stock valves are fine for a 2056.

D) I feel the Webcam 494 is a little aggressive for a street car. Sure it'll make more power, but 28 degrees of overlap will make tuning more difficult. Bigger HP numbers are usually all gained at the top end, and at the expense of low RPM performance. Smaller cams and stock valves increase port velocity at lower RPM and increase low end torque and drivability. I would pull back to a Webcam 86. It looks 'weaker' on paper and you'll probably notice a drop off in 4000+ rpm performance, but the increase in low end would make me happy if it were my car.

[jeffdon]

A) Don't waste your money on Biral or Aluminum cylinders. A 2056 should run plenty cool without the expense.

B) I can do carb rebuilds, but I do a bunch to them and check everything, not just install gasket kits. So it's pricey and you may want to check around.

C) Stock valves are fine for a 2056.

D) I feel the Webcam 494 is a little aggressive for a street car. Sure it'll make more power, but 28 degrees of overlap will make tuning more difficult. Bigger HP numbers are usually all gained at the top end, and at the expense of low RPM performance. Smaller cams and stock valves increase port velocity at lower RPM and increase low end torque and drivability. I would pull back to a Webcam 86. It looks 'weaker' on paper and you'll probably notice a drop off in 4000+ rpm performance, but the increase in low end would make me happy if it were my car.

Trying to avoid splitting the case. That said...if I do, anything else "while I'm in there?"

[914_teener]

Just send it to Mark and do the rest yourself....Type 4.

A comversion will take more that a year.

100 HP is plenty of fun for a 914.

My .02.

[Mikey914]

Just send it to Mark and do the rest yourself....Type 4.

A comversion will take more that a year.

100 HP is plenty of fun for a 914.

My .02.

I'd second that.
The good news is you can send him a motor and he can send you one back. Sounds like your time frame is far enough out it may work out. The conversions you are looking at can easily get into the 5k range and involve a lot of modifications. I well sorted out T4 can produce reliable power and you can tweak it to get a little more power out of it than stock, the more you tweak the more it costs.

My 73 2.0 I had in high school was more dependable that all my friends cars and I got 25MPG! all stock.

The value of your car will also be higher, if heaven forbid, you even have to sell it.

[rhodyguy]

Blackline racing in Murray Utah for the webers. Used to be Air Cooled Engineering (ACE).

[jeffdon]

Blackline racing in Murray Utah for the webers. Used to be Air Cooled Engineering (ACE).

Thats who I was thinking of. THANKS!

[JmuRiz]

If I had to do it all over again, I'd have just kept my /4 and had McMark build a 2056 with 125hp or so...I had all the extra bits (carbs good exhaust etc) to make it simple.

But noooooo, I had to get a 2.7 for cheap and am years into the process of making a 230hp engine...since it needed a rebuild anyway. Original plans were to just freshen and slap it in, but it had more and more issues the more we dug into it.

Conversions typical cost in the low 5 figures

[jeffdon]

If I had to do it all over again, I'd have just kept my /4 and had McMark build a 2056 with 125hp or so...I had all the extra bits (carbs good exhaust etc) to make it simple.

But noooooo, I had to get a 2.7 for cheap and am years into the process of making a 230hp engine...since it needed a rebuild anyway. Original plans were to just freshen and slap it in, but it had more and more issues the more we dug into it.

Conversions typical cost in the low 5 figures

For a 911 six, I agree. I think a subie or honda could be done for much less.

[johnhora]

jeffdon

If you can't get a Type 4 working why would you even tackle a conversion...
Not trying to be snarky here but just frank...
Type 4 are simple reliable engines and can make more that enough HP for street or track in a 914.
If you're not doing stock FI then weber carbs/ manifolds and a new fuel pump is about all you need. Keep it simple.
No trans adapters, radiators, etc....and on and on
You know there is plenty of help here from advise and hands on work.
So....hang in there.. take a deep breath and...
Don't give up on the Type 4 !!!

Regards....John

[Costa05]

I dont recall seeing an adapter plate from Kennedy for mating a 901 transmission to Honda V6. Anyone know the solution for that? I recall one for Acura engine though. Just curious as I already have subie swap under way.

[A&P Mech]

Just send it to Mark and do the rest yourself....Type 4.

A comversion will take more that a year.

100 HP is plenty of fun for a 914.

My .02.

I totally agree (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) , but 200HP is a lot more fun! Do a Subaru EZ30D conversion and watch the Type 4 blues disappear in your tire smoke! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

[mepstein]

One way to handle it is to buy a second car for the conversion and drive the current one. Then it won’t be as hard to stare at the lump in your garage for the next couple years.

[rhodyguy]

Fix the t-4. The dollars add up on a conversion. We don't see many real world $ totals on subby builds and related costs when a pro has to be called in. Except you Curtis. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)