EV 914 Options

[raynekat]

Looks a bit "Rube Goldberg-ish" to me, but creative for sure.

starting at 4:07 on the video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OY2RPSUyIrc

The guy on the EV skateboard is nuts!

[pploco]

That think looks sketchy. He should have at least moved the pee bottle before the video shakedown.

[Superhawk996]

I honestly don't understand the whole 914 EV thing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) To each his own though. Certainly wasn't a easy thing to build and my hat's off to that creativity. However, I did get a kick out of how the Tesla dude commentary just blew past the fact that the owner admitted to the batteries losing capacity as the battery pack ages. 100 mile range when 1st built? That is just a show stopper for me.

I'd rather have the skateboard. That is awesome. I used to skateboard to class when in college. When people heard those wheels clicking over the sidewalk expansion joints, the sidewalk just cleared out and made a path. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif)

The fact that he has a helmet on to ride it tells you about all you need to know.

[mepstein]

When chi-town was selling an electric kit from a 914ev, if not for my total lack of electrical knowledge, I would have purchase it. Our campus has free chargers and a 20 mile range would be fine for getting around town. I was thinking a really small lightweight LiPo battery pack and lots of fiberglass to keep it light and fun. But I need another project like ....

[bbrock]

I honestly don't understand the whole 914 EV thing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

I totally get it grandpa. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) It's the future man.

I think your pain meds might be interfering though. It was actually the 914 guy talking about the 100 mile range and having to hyper mile to get that now due to decreased battery capacity. That doesn't seem bad for a 10 year old home conversion. Remember, the early internal combustion automobiles didn't have great range either.

This one is a bit too cobbled together to suit me. but I'd love to have a 914EV for hops into town. Instant torque baby. My biggest beef with 914 conversions is loss of trunk space.

We've had a Tesla charging station for almost 10 years in Bozeman now. It was several years before I ever saw a car plugged into one. Now when I drive by, there is almost always one or two cars getting a juice. It makes me smile.

So what do we suppose the life expectancy of someone with one of those skateboards would be?

[Superhawk996]

I totally get it grandpa. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) It's the future man.

What I don't get is the desire to make a really expensive EV golf cart and to pay a premium to do so and then think that somehow we've saved money or made the planet greener. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

There is an abundance of EV's out there with better range than 100 miles and have they have A/C and heat to boot. All, for less than $10k . . . yet they aren't highly desired. Simply supply vs. demand.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2012-Nissan-Leaf/2...OEAAOSwFBZdgUcP

It's not that I don't get EV's - I understand them better than the average bear. I understand both the Pro's and the Con's. It's just that the Con's rarely get addressed.

EV's have been around forever. The early 20th century auto industry was 1st heavily EV. Our beloved Dr. Porsche even played in the space a bit.

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/02/25/38-per...-electric-1900/

It wan't until the invention of the automatic starter that eliminated the hand crank of ICE engines that allowed ICE to really take over. Especially for the lady drivers! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving-girl.gif)

So let's not pretend EV's are new, novel, or will single handedly change the world. Whether or not they are the future is debatable. In dense urban centers, they probably will. In areas that have vast distances to cover in a single day . . . probably not.

I'm 100% with you on max torque at 0 RPM. It simply can't be beat. I've driven all the Tesla products and they are a ton of fun in a straight line. Brutal acceleration without the usual powertrain noise is different.

Let it be noted that I've said multiple times on this site that I also don't get building up a 400 HP 914's either. Simple fact is that a Tesla P100D running Ludicrous mode will easily out run said 400 HP 914 in a straight line which what most roads in America are.

I do fully understand the desire to create, fabricate, and experiment for it's own sake . . . and for that I say hooray to the 914 EV, as well as the 400 HP 914. But in either case, let's not overlook the Pro's and Con's of such conversions.

For complete clarity . . . to each his own. Live and let live. I don't have to understand . . . . just go have fun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

[mepstein]

Sometimes it’s the journey, not the destination.

[Superhawk996]

Sometimes it’s the journey, not the destination.

Agree completely.

Here's a fun video of a device that did change the world that is a mixing of fact and fiction. I'll let you figure out what is fact and what is fiction.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsGrFYD5Nfs

[Spoke]

Interesting conversion. I thought he said it cost $20k with the batteries at $7300 were the most expensive. He mentioned the batteries are losing their capacity thus range is reduced from the initial range.

Electric vehicles will continue to grow in popularity especially when the price comes down closer to gas cars. The demand for EV will also increase if the price of gas goes up for a long period of time.

[bbrock]

Sometimes it’s the journey, not the destination.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) Now there's a man who gets it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Only one way to get a 914EV. Take the journey. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif)

I'd say EV cars right now are about where ICE were in the 1930s. In 50 years there will be a Tesla forum of old farts lovingly restoring their classics and waxing nostalgic about the good old days before EV cars were "ruined" by all the modern technology. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

[Superhawk996]

In 50 years there will be a Tesla forum of old farts lovingly restoring their classics and waxing nostalgic about the good old days before EV cars were "ruined" by all the modern technology. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

I'm with you on that one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/pray.gif)

[Superhawk996]

Interesting conversion. I thought he said it cost $20k with the batteries at $7300 were the most expensive. He mentioned the batteries are losing their capacity thus range is reduced from the initial range.

Electric vehicles will continue to grow in popularity especially when the price comes down closer to gas cars. The demand for EV will also increase if the price of gas goes up for a long period of time.

All batteries will lose range as they age. No one has found the miracle chemistry yet.

However, very few are talking facts about what happens as the grid increasingly get loaded with EV's simultaneously as we move toward green energy grid that is not very good at producing energy during non day-light hours. Supply & demand curve applies to electricity as well.

There is speculation that the parked, charged EV's will serve as the load leveling mechanism. Modeling on the subject is incomplete at best. Consider the possibility that you wake in the morning to find EV has not fully charged due to load leveling. Then what? It's the EV equivalent of having had your gas tank siphoned. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)

We are already starting to see EV's get hammered with road use taxes since they are currently escaping gas taxes. To date that has been a free ride for EV owners but it is going to have to come to an end if EV's become the norm.

It will take EV's to do more than just come down to the price of conventional cars to increase demand. Consumers currently demand range and ease of topping off to a full charge in approximately 5 minutes. Fast Chargers can't even come close with current battery technology. Battery swaps are interesting but consumers are not accepting of this at the moment.

It's all very interesting with lots of cards in play for sure.

The market will decide in the end.

[mepstein]

I read that Porsche has developed an 80% charge in 10 minutes. Coming very soon. The average daily mileage for most people is low enough that an every night charge isn't crucial. I also read that China has a solar highway that will charge your car while you drive. There's your range extender. I think the future will move to autonomous vehicle ride sharing. We just order up a ride like Uber and a driverless vehicle will show up when we need it. We won't own it, maintain it, have to finance it or provide space for it. We order up the size car we need for that particular trip. It will take your 10 year old to soccer practice without a parent driving. Take my college kid back to school by driving through the night while she sleeps. Commercial trucks will be there even sooner than cars.

[Superhawk996]

I read that Porsche has developed an 80% charge in 10 minutes. Coming very soon. The average daily mileage for most people is low enough that an every night charge isn't crucial. I also read that China has a solar highway that will charge your car while you drive. There's your range extender. I think the future will move to autonomous vehicle ride sharing. We just order up a ride like Uber and a driverless vehicle will show up when we need it. We won't own it, maintain it, have to finance it or provide space for it. We order up the size car we need for that particular trip. It will take your 10 year old to soccer practice without a parent driving. Take my college kid back to school by driving through the night while she sleeps. Commercial trucks will be there even sooner than cars.

All are interesting concepts and there is truth in there as well. However, I challenge everyone to go dig deeper.

We may live on Mars someday. I'm not opposed to that or EV's. However, in the meantime what is pushed is the positive press and talking points without a critical analysis of cost, feasibility or timing. Dig into the time to bring these concepts to market and what the potential pit falls may be.

If you happen to live in Thompson Falls, MT do you really think an autonomous vehicle will be there when your child is sick at 2:00 am and needs to go to the hospital? Is the answer simply don't live there? What are the consequences of pushing the majority of the population into overly dense urban cities?

Not buying or selling, just saying that critical analysis is necessary and doesn't get much airplay.

[bbrock]

There are several EV cars already on the market with the range that would be acceptable to me (speaking as one who lives in an area where long drive distances are the norm). Some of them even affordable. Charge times continue to come down. I predict that my next new car purchase will not be an EV, but the one after that will.

Oh, and EV cars sound WAY better. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hide.gif)

[Chi-town]

Everyone always forgets about the lithium and how toxic it is to mine, work with in manufacturing and the fact it can't be reused so it's a rolling barrel of toxic waste when it's done.

An electric cars manufacturing carbon footprint exceeds that of a pzev gasoline car in it's entire expected lifetime.

And a majority of the power consumed by these wonder cars is generated from fossil fuels or coal so it keeps making the carbon footprint bigger.

They aren't environmentally beneficial. It's just a convenient way for people to think they are. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

[Superhawk996]

Oh, and EV cars sound WAY better. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hide.gif)

Depends on what you mean by sounds better.

Without the conventional powertrain noise, in the EV, the road noise and windnoise becomes much more noticeable. It does become a dissatisfaction to some buyers.

Is there a solution? Sure, but, it adds more cost and more weight to already heavy EV's. Weight saps range.

There is no free lunch but it is a fun engineering exercise.

[Superhawk996]

Everyone always forgets about the lithium and how toxic it is to mine, work with in manufacturing and the fact it can't be reused so it's a rolling barrel of toxic waste when it's done.

An electric cars manufacturing carbon footprint exceeds that of a pzev gasoline car in it's entire expected lifetime.

And a majority of the power consumed by these wonder cars is generated from fossil fuels or coal so it keeps making the carbon footprint bigger.

They aren't environmentally beneficial. It's just a convenient way for people to think they are. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

Again all great points. I'll play devils advocate for a moment.

Because Lithium historically has been pricey, battery designs continued to evolve using even less Lithium while still performing well. Lithium prices are down recently in part, due to Lithium conservation and the reduction in demand for Chinese EV's. Why is China demand down? In part, because the Chinese government is reducing its subsidy of EV's!

However, there are other expensive metals used in batteries that aren't well known, or widely discussed. Namely Cobalt, Nickel, etc. These commodities markets are very volatile even under the relatively small market share that EV's have. What happens as EV's come up to scale is anybody's guess.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/112477...other-materials

The EV situation is complex indeed.

[bbrock]

In 2015, the Union of Concerned Scientists released a report finding that EV have lower cradle to grave emission than gasoline cars even when run on dirty electricity. EV do have a higher carbon footprint to produce compared conventional ICE, but over the life of the vehicle, reduced tailpipe emissions more than make up for it.

https://www.ucsusa.org/clean-vehicles/elect...le-ev-emissions

Lithium batteries CAN be recycled, it just often isn't.

https://waste-management-world.com/a/in-dep...energy-clean-up

https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-bus...thium-recycling

Of course EV are not perfect and will present many new challenges. Is any technology a perfect solution for the problem it is intended to solve? Why do we make perfect the enemy of the good? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Another thought... I wonder how many total engineer-hours have been devoted to gasoline vs EV vehicles since their humble beginnings around the turn of the 20th century? I'm guessing it will be some time before the cumulative effort spent on perfecting EV power plants matches that of combustion engines.

[Superhawk996]

In 2015, the Union of Concerned Scientists released a report finding that EV have lower cradle to grave emission than gasoline cars even when run on dirty electricity. EV do have a higher carbon footprint to produce compared conventional ICE, but over the life of the vehicle, reduced tailpipe emissions more than make up for it.

https://www.ucsusa.org/clean-vehicles/elect...le-ev-emissions


Of course EV are not perfect and will present many new challenges. Is any technology a perfect solution for the problem it is intended to solve? Why do we make perfect the enemy of the good? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

I love the spirited debate. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Like most reports, the Union of Concerned Scientists report has a definite bias toward EV's. Better than most for sure, but, the bias is there none the less with some carefully chosen assumptions at best or deceitful assumptions at worst.


Let's start with the assumption that a Nissan Leaf will only require or use 1 battery in it's lifetime - this clearly isn't the case based on field performance. See the previous eBay ad I posted for the Leaf, the owner admits the battery is shot and range has been negatively impacted. Vehicle had 50K miles and range had been reduced to 40 miles. Using the study life cycle of 179,200 miles, Nissan Leaf's will definately need more than one battery in their lifetime. Maybe 3 or 4! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)



Let's take a look at how fuel economy was compared for Gas vs. EV's.



These are suspiciously low and are from MY15 vehicles Why not include any Hybrids that offer excellent Fuel Economy and aren't tethered to EV chargers for long trips? Hybrids are a wonderful middle ground between Gas and EV and a far better choice for the average consumer.




They also used a strange assumption on the large car side. Is anyone is really considering a Hyundai Equus or a Chrysler 300 vs. Telsa? Seems to me that the Hyundai was thrown in there to drag down the average MPG. Over a 179,200 mile vehicle life assumption, the fact that they put the Hyundai Equus in there will add up to an disadvantage to the gas vehicles. In all fairness, if they really wanted to push down the numbers for the large gas cars, they could have chosen the Chrysler 300 with the V8 Hemi or a Hellcat and they didn't. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)







But allow me to push back on your statement:
Why do we make perfect the enemy of the good? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

I honestly don't think we are. EV's will continue to propagate if for no reason other than forced Government mandates that you will have no choice on. People are not yet choosing them in mass for a lot of different reasons. Even you mentioned that an EV will not be your next car. Why wait? Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.

There are lots of good reasons to wait, particularly in your neck of the woods. As far as I could tell, the study referenced makes no accounting for diminished battery range in cold weather, the need for more EV charges per mile, and the increased contribution to overall EV emissions in cold climates.

I do a lot of winter testing of vehicles and I assure you that every time I've gone out to an EV on a cold morning 0F or below, the battery is not fully charged (EV's have to use battery power to warm the pack just to get it to charge) and once under way, the range diminishes much faster than the optimistic projection of the instruments due to need to heat the cabin, defrost the window, and the increased parasitic drag of driving though snow.

Overall a great study and well footnoted. Much better than most where they seem to carefully omit their methodology. I would like to look into the footnotes a bit more and encourage others to really dig into any study or report and understand what is being reported Good or Bad.