Have you heard of or used PTH racing oil?, another anoying oil question- ran into this at the last Werk's Reunion and Ameila Concours |
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Have you heard of or used PTH racing oil?, another anoying oil question- ran into this at the last Werk's Reunion and Ameila Concours |
DRPHIL914 |
Oct 14 2020, 08:33 AM
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#1
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Dr. Phil Group: Members Posts: 5,768 Joined: 9-December 09 From: Bluffton, SC Member No.: 11,106 Region Association: South East States |
did some research and it turns out some big name racing groups have switched to this ,
and when comparing to Driven or Penn , it has similar atributes but a higher flash point, by quite a bit over DRIVEN . i will post the comparison chart provided by PTH , but looks interesting. I know i am not racing my car but oil temps can go up pretty good when driving in hot weather around here or up in the hills in summer, during a hard push up the mountain etc. , even with the aux oil cooler. Head temps are staying in safe zone. just wondering if anyone has used this as i dont see any previous posting on it . https://www.pthoil.com/ PTH Racing Oil 20W 50 Specific Gravity: – 0.886 Kinematic Viscosity 40C: – 147.62 Kinematic Viscosity 100C: – 19.84 Viscosity Index: – 155 HTHS: – 5.2 Flash Point: – 235°C Cold Crank Viscosity: – 3298cP TBN: – 10 Attached image(s) |
tygaboy |
Oct 14 2020, 09:23 AM
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#2
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 5,308 Joined: 6-October 15 From: Petaluma, CA Member No.: 19,241 Region Association: Northern California |
The owner of PTH approached me to ask about (and video!) my 914 when it was getting aligned at Roger Krause Racing. We got into a conversation about this oil and he pretty quickly outpaced my understanding of the related chemistry.
It sounds like the real deal as he mentioned a number of top race teams that use it. |
DRPHIL914 |
Oct 14 2020, 10:04 AM
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#3
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Dr. Phil Group: Members Posts: 5,768 Joined: 9-December 09 From: Bluffton, SC Member No.: 11,106 Region Association: South East States |
The owner of PTH approached me to ask about (and video!) my 914 when it was getting aligned at Roger Krause Racing. We got into a conversation about this oil and he pretty quickly outpaced my understanding of the related chemistry. It sounds like the real deal as he mentioned a number of top race teams that use it. also the ZPPD numbers are higher than the other 2 popularly used oils. I have used either Driven or Brad Penn(Penn GRade) 20/50 and thats what is in the car now. Prior to that i had been using the Valvoline VR racing oil. the 2 main things that caught my attention is those numbers so much higher, i didnt realize the zppd numbers were so low in the driven oil, AND the flash point. That seems to be a huge difference we are talking close to 100degrees F difference. Its not cheap but then neither are rebuilt motors due to dropped valve seats etc. . |
Superhawk996 |
Oct 14 2020, 10:34 AM
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#4
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 5,892 Joined: 25-August 18 From: Woods of N. Idaho Member No.: 22,428 Region Association: Galt's Gulch |
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second wind |
Oct 14 2020, 12:43 PM
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#5
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 857 Joined: 30-December 10 From: Los Angeles, California Member No.: 12,543 Region Association: Southern California |
I would love to hear more about this oil.....anybody out there?? Having a dropped valve seat is something I never want to go through again....very painful. Could someone please tell me why using this oil might prevent a dropped valve seat? I just don't know enough about it. Thank you very much.
gg |
Superhawk996 |
Oct 14 2020, 03:17 PM
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#6
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 5,892 Joined: 25-August 18 From: Woods of N. Idaho Member No.: 22,428 Region Association: Galt's Gulch |
I would love to hear more about this oil.....anybody out there?? Having a dropped valve seat is something I never want to go through again....very painful. Could someone please tell me why using this oil might prevent a dropped valve seat? I just don't know enough about it. Thank you very much. gg Short answer - - - it won't. Dropped valve seat is a function of grossly overheating the cylinder heads to the point that the head expands faster than the seat. The shrink fit is lost, and the seat literally falls out when the valve opens. This type of massive overheating usually occurs from cooling blockages, running very lean mixtures for one reason or another, or timing being way, way off. Oil type will not address this type of overheating. |
Mark Henry |
Oct 14 2020, 03:58 PM
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#7
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that's what I do! Group: Members Posts: 20,065 Joined: 27-December 02 From: Port Hope, Ontario Member No.: 26 Region Association: Canada |
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)
A It's a bouquet oil... so...(IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) A good oil at around 1200-1400 ppm is all you need. This year I'm using Shell Rotilla T5 semi-synthetic, cheap, I buy it on sale. I haven't hit the 7k rev limiter yet, but I know I've been close. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif) |
second wind |
Oct 14 2020, 05:14 PM
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#8
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 857 Joined: 30-December 10 From: Los Angeles, California Member No.: 12,543 Region Association: Southern California |
Funny (not really) when I lost my valve seat it turned out my oil cooler fins were completely clogged with dirt as were the bottom half of all four cylinder fins.....then I am waiting to pick my son up in the high school pick up line in the San Fernando Valley in August and I am looking at the electric sign saying " Go Eagles...temperature 104"....I think that was it.....
gg |
Superhawk996 |
Oct 14 2020, 05:45 PM
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#9
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 5,892 Joined: 25-August 18 From: Woods of N. Idaho Member No.: 22,428 Region Association: Galt's Gulch |
Funny (not really) when I lost my valve seat it turned out my oil cooler fins were completely clogged with dirt as were the bottom half of all four cylinder fins.....then I am waiting to pick my son up in the high school pick up line in the San Fernando Valley in August and I am looking at the electric sign saying " Go Eagles...temperature 104"....I think that was it..... gg Yup that would do it. Air cooled won't mind 104F too much on a properly functioning engine. Clogged fins on the head would do the trick for sure. Clogged oil cooler would only make it worse. Although engines are called air cooled, there is a fair bit of oil cooling involved too. |
Olympic 914 |
Oct 14 2020, 06:39 PM
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#10
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Group: Members Posts: 1,675 Joined: 7-July 11 From: Pittsburgh PA Member No.: 13,287 Region Association: North East States |
Little off topic but how does the oil flow to the heads on a type IV ?
oil feeds the lifters but solids don't pump oil up the pushrods. There are no oil lines to the rocker arm shafts. Inquiring minds want to know. |
BENBRO02 |
Oct 14 2020, 07:06 PM
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 482 Joined: 6-March 15 From: Nokesville, Virginia Member No.: 18,493 Region Association: MidAtlantic Region |
The owner of PTH approached me to ask about (and video!) my 914 when it was getting aligned at Roger Krause Racing. We got into a conversation about this oil and he pretty quickly outpaced my understanding of the related chemistry. It sounds like the real deal as he mentioned a number of top race teams that use it. also the ZPPD numbers are higher than the other 2 popularly used oils. I have used either Driven or Brad Penn(Penn GRade) 20/50 and thats what is in the car now. Prior to that i had been using the Valvoline VR racing oil. the 2 main things that caught my attention is those numbers so much higher, i didnt realize the zppd numbers were so low in the driven oil, AND the flash point. That seems to be a huge difference we are talking close to 100degrees F difference. Its not cheap but then neither are rebuilt motors due to dropped valve seats etc. . How much zppd is the optimum amount? |
Superhawk996 |
Oct 15 2020, 06:19 AM
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#12
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 5,892 Joined: 25-August 18 From: Woods of N. Idaho Member No.: 22,428 Region Association: Galt's Gulch |
Little off topic but how does the oil flow to the heads on a type IV ? oil feeds the lifters but solids don't pump oil up the pushrods. There are no oil lines to the rocker arm shafts. Inquiring minds want to know. @olympic 914 Hollow push rod tubes. Solid lifters have an oil flow port that goes from oil galley and flows oil up into the pushrod seat via hole right where the push rod seats. Oil does flow up though the pushrod to the head and returns back via drainage through the push rod tube. |
Mark Henry |
Oct 15 2020, 06:22 AM
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#13
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that's what I do! Group: Members Posts: 20,065 Joined: 27-December 02 From: Port Hope, Ontario Member No.: 26 Region Association: Canada |
Little off topic but how does the oil flow to the heads on a type IV ? oil feeds the lifters but solids don't pump oil up the pushrods. There are no oil lines to the rocker arm shafts. Inquiring minds want to know. Through the hollow push rods, the lifter is the oil feed, the rockers are drilled, lubes the rocker shaft, some leaks down the adjuster threads and the rest is splash. The push rod tubes are the oil return. |
Jake Raby |
Oct 15 2020, 01:28 PM
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#14
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Engine Surgeon Group: Members Posts: 9,394 Joined: 31-August 03 From: Lost Member No.: 1,095 Region Association: South East States |
The owner of PTH approached me to ask about (and video!) my 914 when it was getting aligned at Roger Krause Racing. We got into a conversation about this oil and he pretty quickly outpaced my understanding of the related chemistry. It sounds like the real deal as he mentioned a number of top race teams that use it. also the ZPPD numbers are higher than the other 2 popularly used oils. I have used either Driven or Brad Penn(Penn GRade) 20/50 and thats what is in the car now. Prior to that i had been using the Valvoline VR racing oil. the 2 main things that caught my attention is those numbers so much higher, i didnt realize the zppd numbers were so low in the driven oil, AND the flash point. That seems to be a huge difference we are talking close to 100degrees F difference. Its not cheap but then neither are rebuilt motors due to dropped valve seats etc. . How much zppd is the optimum amount? That's according to the base oil, and detergency packages. The anti- wear Vs detergency package balance is the most critical thing I have found over the last 16 years of direct testing of engine oils. With a Zn and P of the levels above, I'd expect this oil to be effective in a very narrow range of specific applications, but it would take years of data collection, and UOA to prove it. |
DRPHIL914 |
Oct 16 2020, 08:47 AM
Post
#15
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Dr. Phil Group: Members Posts: 5,768 Joined: 9-December 09 From: Bluffton, SC Member No.: 11,106 Region Association: South East States |
The owner of PTH approached me to ask about (and video!) my 914 when it was getting aligned at Roger Krause Racing. We got into a conversation about this oil and he pretty quickly outpaced my understanding of the related chemistry. It sounds like the real deal as he mentioned a number of top race teams that use it. also the ZPPD numbers are higher than the other 2 popularly used oils. I have used either Driven or Brad Penn(Penn GRade) 20/50 and thats what is in the car now. Prior to that i had been using the Valvoline VR racing oil. the 2 main things that caught my attention is those numbers so much higher, i didnt realize the zppd numbers were so low in the driven oil, AND the flash point. That seems to be a huge difference we are talking close to 100degrees F difference. Its not cheap but then neither are rebuilt motors due to dropped valve seats etc. . How much zppd is the optimum amount? That's according to the base oil, and detergency packages. The anti- wear Vs detergency package balance is the most critical thing I have found over the last 16 years of direct testing of engine oils. With a Zn and P of the levels above, I'd expect this oil to be effective in a very narrow range of specific applications, but it would take years of data collection, and UOA to prove it. @Jake Raby Jake, thanks for your input. are you using the DRIVEN DT50 in your current project, testing the new cylinder liner product on that 914 aircooled/4 mule? Phil |
Jake Raby |
Oct 16 2020, 11:05 AM
Post
#16
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Engine Surgeon Group: Members Posts: 9,394 Joined: 31-August 03 From: Lost Member No.: 1,095 Region Association: South East States |
The owner of PTH approached me to ask about (and video!) my 914 when it was getting aligned at Roger Krause Racing. We got into a conversation about this oil and he pretty quickly outpaced my understanding of the related chemistry. It sounds like the real deal as he mentioned a number of top race teams that use it. also the ZPPD numbers are higher than the other 2 popularly used oils. I have used either Driven or Brad Penn(Penn GRade) 20/50 and thats what is in the car now. Prior to that i had been using the Valvoline VR racing oil. the 2 main things that caught my attention is those numbers so much higher, i didnt realize the zppd numbers were so low in the driven oil, AND the flash point. That seems to be a huge difference we are talking close to 100degrees F difference. Its not cheap but then neither are rebuilt motors due to dropped valve seats etc. . How much zppd is the optimum amount? That's according to the base oil, and detergency packages. The anti- wear Vs detergency package balance is the most critical thing I have found over the last 16 years of direct testing of engine oils. With a Zn and P of the levels above, I'd expect this oil to be effective in a very narrow range of specific applications, but it would take years of data collection, and UOA to prove it. @Jake Raby Jake, thanks for your input. are you using the DRIVEN DT50 in your current project, testing the new cylinder liner product on that 914 aircooled/4 mule? Phil No. We do not go to DT50 with our engines until after the first major service. The oil I am using with the Sumebore test engine was selected to only benefit the Sumebore development, and nothing else. This is a non- friction modified conventional oil blended by ARG specifically for this development. Typical practices that we use for Nickies engines were abandoned for the Sumebore comparatives. This same oil is being used in the Sumebore water-cooled M9X engine as well, along with the same ring pack, running clearances, and piston specifications. This is an "air Vs Water, Nickies Vs. Sumebore" challenge. This post has been edited by Jake Raby: Oct 16 2020, 11:07 AM |
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