Why Some Cars Don't Survive, I Can't Find The Original Post Options

[windforfun]

Porsche has always used the highest quality materials. Also, the 914 design was in a class by itself. The British & Italian cars in a similar price range were really pieces of junk (no offense intended), but they were. Brand new Jags at the dealership would have drip pans under them. They may have been faster, but they haven't stood the test of time. This is where material science & reliability statistics have come into play. The Japanese auto industry have the statistician Deming, who trained Taguchi at the end of WWII, to thank for their success. We sent Deming over to Japan at the end of WWII to help them get their shit together. I took many statistics & probability theory courses in college & grad school. One such course was taught by Prof. Bonus who used to work on the reliability of Cadillac engines. I would typically attend his classes while tripping on LSD. His course was lots of fun. I think my final grade was a B. FYI. Cheers.

[windforfun]

Oh & BTW, don't get me started on the differences between the reliability engineering in the Boeing aircraft vs. that of McDonnell Douglas. And whatever you do, stay out of helicopters.

[ClayPerrine]

And whatever you do, stay out of helicopters.

The only reason a helicopter flies is because it is so ugly the ground rejects it.

[VaccaRabite]

And whatever you do, stay out of helicopters.

The only reason a helicopter flies is because it is so ugly the ground rejects it.

...beats the air into submission

Zach

[914_teener]

Porsche has always used the highest quality materials. Also, the 914 design was in a class by itself. The British & Italian cars in a similar price range were really pieces of junk (no offense intended), but they were. Brand new Jags at the dealership would have drip pans under them. They may have been faster, but they haven't stood the test of time. This is where material science & reliability statistics have come into play. The Japanese auto industry have the statistician Deming, who trained Taguchi at the end of WWII, to thank for their success. We sent Deming over to Japan at the end of WWII to help them get their shit together. I took many statistics & probability theory courses in college & grad school. One such course was taught by Prof. Bonus who used to work on the reliability of Cadillac engines. I would typically attend his classes while tripping on LSD. His course was lots of fun. I think my final grade was a B. FYI. Cheers.

One of my first jobs out of college was doing Cpk analysis and studying lean manufacturing. I'm a big fan of Demming and the Japaneese took him very seriously.

The factory tour at Zuffenhausen is pretty impressive as far as automation. I'd recommend it when travel becomes less of a health risk.

Nice post....brings back good memories for me.

[gereed75]

As an ex Navy helo driver, don’t get me started. Let’s just say lots of moving parts flying in close formation, all of which have to keep working or you are in deep doodoo

Later involved in making parts in the aerospace supply chain with a descent familiarity with Boeing, Rockwell, McD, gE, Pratt Whitney, Airbus and others. Got to watch first hand the disassembly of that industry and deconstruction/adaptation of their disparate quality programs as they transitioned from “makers” to “assemblers”. All in all an interesting look into what was once the incredible manufacturing might of America.

With the experience of all our members here might be an interesting topic for discussion in the sandbox.

In the mean time, my take on cars was:

American best mass produced quality with cost and sales and volume the over riding drivers

Italian elegant engineering, worst materials

British just quirky, one step above cottage industry

Japanese very fast learners driven by high standards of design and engineering and materials

German really good engineering and the absolute best materials. Hard combo to beat

I think what you always have to consider is the volume of the market that these industries were serving at the time ( I assume we are talking 70’s 914 contemporary era)

[914_teener]

As an ex Navy helo driver, don’t get me started. Let’s just say lots of moving parts flying in close formation, all of which have to keep working or you are in deep doodoo

Later involved in making parts in the aerospace supply chain with a descent familiarity with Boeing, Rockwell, McD, gE, Pratt Whitney, Airbus and others. Got to watch first hand the disassembly of that industry and deconstruction/adaptation of their disparate quality programs as they transitioned from “makers” to “assemblers”. All in all an interesting look into what was once the incredible manufacturing might of America.

With the experience of all our members here might be an interesting topic for discussion in the sandbox.

In the mean time, my take on cars was:

American best mass produced quality with cost and sales and volume the over riding drivers

Italian best engineering, worst materials

British just quirky, one step above cottage industry

Japanese driven by high standards of design and engineering and materials

German really good engineering and the absolute best materials. Hard combo to beat

The French don't even make the list..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)

[KELTY360]

As an ex Navy helo driver, don’t get me started. Let’s just say lots of moving parts flying in close formation, all of which have to keep working or you are in deep doodoo

Later involved in making parts in the aerospace supply chain with a descent familiarity with Boeing, Rockwell, McD, gE, Pratt Whitney, Airbus and others. Got to watch first hand the disassembly of that industry and deconstruction/adaptation of their disparate quality programs as they transitioned from “makers” to “assemblers”. All in all an interesting look into what was once the incredible manufacturing might of America.

With the experience of all our members here might be an interesting topic for discussion in the sandbox.

In the mean time, my take on cars was:

American best mass produced quality with cost and sales and volume the over riding drivers

Italian best engineering, worst materials

British just quirky, one step above cottage industry

Japanese driven by high standards of design and engineering and materials

German really good engineering and the absolute best materials. Hard combo to beat

The French don't even make the list..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)

There really aren’t any good adjectives for quirky. Let’s just say they needed to beat the Brits in something. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

[StarBear]

As an ex Navy helo driver, don’t get me started. Let’s just say lots of moving parts flying in close formation, all of which have to keep working or you are in deep doodoo

Later involved in making parts in the aerospace supply chain with a descent familiarity with Boeing, Rockwell, McD, gE, Pratt Whitney, Airbus and others. Got to watch first hand the disassembly of that industry and deconstruction/adaptation of their disparate quality programs as they transitioned from “makers” to “assemblers”. All in all an interesting look into what was once the incredible manufacturing might of America.

With the experience of all our members here might be an interesting topic for discussion in the sandbox.

In the mean time, my take on cars was:

American best mass produced quality with cost and sales and volume the over riding drivers

Italian elegant engineering, worst materials

British just quirky, one step above cottage industry

Japanese very fast learners driven by high standards of design and engineering and materials

German really good engineering and the absolute best materials. Hard combo to beat

I think what you always have to consider is the volume of the market that these industries were serving at the time ( I assume we are talking 70’s 914 contemporary era)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)
Oh, and who can forget the Yugo??

[Pursang]

And whatever you do, stay out of helicopters.

The only reason a helicopter flies is because it is so ugly the ground rejects it.

...beats the air into submission

"Helicopters don't fly, they levitate." -Stephen Coonts

[windforfun]

As an ex Navy helo driver, don’t get me started. Let’s just say lots of moving parts flying in close formation, all of which have to keep working or you are in deep doodoo

Later involved in making parts in the aerospace supply chain with a descent familiarity with Boeing, Rockwell, McD, gE, Pratt Whitney, Airbus and others. Got to watch first hand the disassembly of that industry and deconstruction/adaptation of their disparate quality programs as they transitioned from “makers” to “assemblers”. All in all an interesting look into what was once the incredible manufacturing might of America.

With the experience of all our members here might be an interesting topic for discussion in the sandbox.

In the mean time, my take on cars was:

American best mass produced quality with cost and sales and volume the over riding drivers

Italian elegant engineering, worst materials

British just quirky, one step above cottage industry

Japanese very fast learners driven by high standards of design and engineering and materials

German really good engineering and the absolute best materials. Hard combo to beat

I think what you always have to consider is the volume of the market that these industries were serving at the time ( I assume we are talking 70’s 914 contemporary era)

I used to work for MD in the "80's doing optical data storage R&D for MDEC's flight simulators. I'll never forget visiting the MD80 assembly line in St Louis. WOW!!! Plus, when I stepped out of the hanger there was an AV8B hovering over the runway about 50 yards away. SUPER WOW!!! MD was a great company to work for. There was also a F15 suspended from the ceiling in a lab near the assembly line. There were all these cables attached to it to permit strain vs. stress testing. SUPER WOW AGAIN!!! It might have been a F18. I can't remember anymore. Finally, there wasn't a ladies bathroom next to the BOD's conference room. Those were different times for sure.

[Ansbacher]

The factory tour at Zuffenhausen is pretty impressive as far as automation. I'd recommend it when travel becomes less of a health risk.

Nice post....brings back good memories for me.
[/quote]


How times change. I can remember Zuffenhausen tours when the management bragged that the only robot in the factory was the one that glued the rear window in 928s.

Ansbacher

[wonkipop]

As an ex Navy helo driver, don’t get me started. Let’s just say lots of moving parts flying in close formation, all of which have to keep working or you are in deep doodoo

Later involved in making parts in the aerospace supply chain with a descent familiarity with Boeing, Rockwell, McD, gE, Pratt Whitney, Airbus and others. Got to watch first hand the disassembly of that industry and deconstruction/adaptation of their disparate quality programs as they transitioned from “makers” to “assemblers”. All in all an interesting look into what was once the incredible manufacturing might of America.

With the experience of all our members here might be an interesting topic for discussion in the sandbox.

In the mean time, my take on cars was:

American best mass produced quality with cost and sales and volume the over riding drivers

Italian elegant engineering, worst materials

British just quirky, one step above cottage industry

Japanese very fast learners driven by high standards of design and engineering and materials

German really good engineering and the absolute best materials. Hard combo to beat

I think what you always have to consider is the volume of the market that these industries were serving at the time ( I assume we are talking 70’s 914 contemporary era)

yes - american mass produced quality survived best on australian roads and conditions during the late 50s 60s and 70s. and it was affordable. particularly ford once they overcame shortcomings with the ford falcon front end in the early 60s. australian roads killed cars in that era. the only other cars that could compete in terms of rugged simple engineering were vw beetles. even today, i would rather drive a late 80s ford falcon ute, or a well sorted beetle or type 3 out into the desert than a modern SUV. you can always fix the ford and the volkswagen with a elastic band or a bit of string. even now.

i have excluded holden (gm) but thats because i was born into a ford family.
the gm stuff was as dependable as the ford for the same reasons.

the japanese (toyota particularly) inherited that mantle from ford and vw in the late 70s and early 80s.
as noted, they are perfectionists. like americans and germans they also understand metal, innately. i put that down to their thousands of years making swords.

italian cars probably survived the longest anywhere down here as the rust went in slow motion (but they still rusted) there is a new problem emerging in the ones still left. stress cracking and structural failures.
i have seem some front ends (body shell front ends) that would make you think twice about whether its a good idea to continue to drive them, even after repairs.
thats lancias, alfas and fiats. i don't think they really understand steel and metals properly.

french engineering found acceptance down here. french cars are designed to run in hot conditions and have suspension that can suck up any kind of road.
there are still a lot of surviving french relics here kept alive by enthusiasts.
the french do great engines. easily as good as the italians. and they are much better suspension engineers.
but these were eccentric cars and never became mainstream like the fords, holdens, vws and toyotas.

in the end though there are less and less carmakers.
in the last 5 years both ford and gm have left australia.
gm drastically so since it has abandoned all rhd markets - we still get ford imports.
so many have disappeared in the last decade or so.
i was very sad about the fate of SAAB.

i never shed a tear when leyland collapsed in the 70s.

the chinese are coming. god help us.

[plutothepointer]

i was very sad about the fate of SAAB.


SAAB were good cars. Different from VOLVO but as good and reliable. Sorry this make was closed. GM was not good for their "foreign" companys like SAAB and OPEL.

[Porschef]

Had a couple 900’s. They were tanks, good cars. The only problem was that they were about 10 years old when I got them, and not always properly maintained. The 9000 Aero I had was the best road car I’ve ever driven. A 6 hour trip in that car felt like 45 minutes... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[bdstone914]

As an ex Navy helo driver, don’t get me started. Let’s just say lots of moving parts flying in close formation, all of which have to keep working or you are in deep doodoo

Later involved in making parts in the aerospace supply chain with a descent familiarity with Boeing, Rockwell, McD, gE, Pratt Whitney, Airbus and others. Got to watch first hand the disassembly of that industry and deconstruction/adaptation of their disparate quality programs as they transitioned from “makers” to “assemblers”. All in all an interesting look into what was once the incredible manufacturing might of America.

With the experience of all our members here might be an interesting topic for discussion in the sandbox.

In the mean time, my take on cars was:

American best mass produced quality with cost and sales and volume the over riding drivers

Italian best engineering, worst materials

British just quirky, one step above cottage industry

Japanese driven by high standards of design and engineering and materials

German really good engineering and the absolute best materials. Hard combo to beat

The French don't even make the list..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)

They make good food and wine though....

[Shivers]

"you can always fix the ford and the volkswagen with a elastic band or a bit of string. even now." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Superhawk996]

"you can always fix the ford and the volkswagen with a elastic band or a bit of string. even now." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

There is a lot to be said for simplicity and ease of repair of 70's era.

I have a 2008 Jeep Wrangler (don't ask . . ). The chassis is great for off-road use. The modern electronics are (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stromberg.gif)

Deep within the Totally Inegrated Power Module (TIPM) is a $5.00 relay that is not easily servicable. It is soldered to the control PCB. They have a tendency to fail without warning. Did I mention it controls the fuel pump?

So when it fails, it will crank till the cows come home but it will never start given that fuel is part of the combustion process. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

Not really a good failure mode when you use that vehicle to get you 30 miles out into the mountains and logging roads. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

Luckily a brilliant soul has developed a jumper harness that can bypass the relay by pulling some fuses and bypassing that POS relay.

If you have a Jeep Wranger of this era and use it to get way back in the woods, I highly recommend you PM me before you find yourself on a 30 mile hike hoping a logging truck or some random sportsman comes along!

Oh did I mention that if a cam or crank sensor fails you'll be walking too? So yeah, lots to be said for simplicity of years gone by.

[barefoot]

"you can always fix the ford and the volkswagen with a elastic band or a bit of string. even now." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

There is a lot to be said for simplicity and ease of repair of 70's era.

I have a 2008 Jeep Wrangler (don't ask . . ). The chassis is great for off-road use. The modern electronics are (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stromberg.gif)

Deep within the Totally Inegrated Power Module (TIPM) is a $5.00 relay that is not easily servicable. It is soldered to the control PCB. They have a tendency to fail without warning. Did I mention it controls the fuel pump?

So when it fails, it will crank till the cows come home but it will never start given that fuel is part of the combustion process. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

Not really a good failure mode when you use that vehicle to get you 30 miles out into the mountains and logging roads. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

Luckily a brilliant soul has developed a jumper harness that can bypass the relay by pulling some fuses and bypassing that POS relay.

If you have a Jeep Wranger of this era and use it to get way back in the woods, I highly recommend you PM me before you find yourself on a 30 mile hike hoping a logging truck or some random sportsman comes along!

Oh did I mention that if a cam or crank sensor fails you'll be walking too? So yeah, lots to be said for simplicity of years gone by.

That's why I haven't upgraded my 914 ignition beyond points & condenser, they've provided spark for hundreds of thousands of our cars for a very long time.
One day pooling with a mate form college car quit running on a Saturday evening. Looked in the distributor and realized the points had failed (broken cam follower).
Easily fornd a replacement and were off on the road again.
Tru that with anything more modern. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[Dave_Darling]

The French don't even make the list..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)

The French had some really excellent engineering! But it was very much marching to its own drummer. Plus they tended to make things "interesting" enough that it was difficult to make a profit. Rumor has it that they lost money on every DS built up until the 70s or so, but nobody could tell because their finances were so wacky.

But drive a properly-maintained DS or a 2CV on bad roads and then tell me their engineering is crap!

SAABs were very cool. I'd like to pick up an old one, probably one of the V4-powered ones because I don't really want to deal with a 2-stroke motor. Again, quirky, but well-engineered.


I don't have the time to talk about my experience in aerospace. But I started at NASA in 1987 and was there through about 2010. Some cool stuff, mostly on the first A ("Aeronautics") rather than the S ("Space"). Harriers are cool and I'm good at crashing them...

--DD