Oil Pump Leak Questions, Normal wear, or....? Options

[BeatNavy]

I've had a couple of oil leaks on my fresh 2270, the most annoying of which seemed to come from the area of the oil pump and gradually got worse. Oil would drip on the underside of the engine mount cross bar in the center and air flow would then scatter it around (on engine, gearbox, exhaust, etc.). I bit the bullet this weekend and pulled the engine.

I then pulled off just the oil pump cover. I gather it's best to leave the pump housing itself in place if that's not the issue. I've got pics below showing where the lower oil pump gear has really ground against the cover, and a closeup of the gear itself showing wear on the gear. That edge on the inside lip of the gear is actually sharp to the touch. I would be guessing that metal on metal contact is not awesome right in the heart of the lubrication system, but I have also heard that those pumps do press against the cover.

Not sure if this is the cause of, or contributor to, my oil leak, but how does this look to the braintrust? Assuming this is considered "acceptable," any tips for sealing this bad boy up so it doesn't leak? I've seen McMark's video....

Here's a shot of the pump with the cover on. Oil can be seen collecting at the bottom on the lip. If I had to guess it looks like it actually came out around the studs, as the nuts were pretty oily on the inside.



Cover showing wear...



Oil pump gears....



Closeup of the bottom gear. It's actually worn a sharp lip on that lower gear.

[VaccaRabite]

That pin seems like its in there a good bit. I don't recall the spec on it but I do recall that if the pin drifts backwards too much it will impact the cam gear and that will cost you the engine.

When you built this engine, do you recall if the idle pin was that deep on the idle gear?

Zach

[914Sixer]

Bug type pumps always used sealing nut with the same material as in the case bolts. Can't tell IF your using that style nut on your cover

[BeatNavy]

That pin seems like its in there a good bit. I don't recall the spec on it but I do recall that if the pin drifts backwards too much it will impact the cam gear and that will cost you the engine.

When you built this engine, do you recall if the idle pin was that deep on the idle gear?

Zach

Hey Zach, I didn't build this engine, so I can't answer that question, but that did kind of jump out at me as well (how deep the pin was). I do have the 2056 I built sitting the floor of my garage, and it used the same cover and pump as this engine (IIRC). I guess I could pull the cover on that one and check, but then that one might be going back in the car soon if I have major work to do on this one.

What would cause the pin to drift?

Mark, those nuts are interesting. The nuts on this one do have a shoulder but do not have that seal on the threads. When I put mine together I'm pretty sure I used that white thread sealant on the studs. This one didn't have anything except a very thin coating on the cover, and it didn't go completely around the studs.

[ejm]

The galling on the cover and lower gear is not typical wear. Try to determine why it happened and replace the complete pump.

[VaccaRabite]

What would cause the pin to drift?

The pin drifts when the pump is failing.

Between the pin depth and the galling on the idler gear I'd say that one is failing.

On the old Club site Jake had a thread that showed what a normal, failing and failed oil pump looked like. I can't find it now, but my (admittedly foggy) memory is throwing red flags looking at your pump.

Zach

[930cabman]

What would cause the pin to drift?

The pin drifts when the pump is failing.

Between the pin depth and the galling on the idler gear I'd say that one is failing.

On the old Club site Jake had a thread that showed what a normal, failing and failed oil pump looked like. I can't find it now, but my (admittedly foggy) memory is throwing red flags looking at your pump.

Zach

Agreed, I would also say the pump is failing. What is causing the gears to be wearing against the cover? There must be metal shavings in the oil. Good thing you caught it now.

[BeatNavy]

Ok, so it looks like a new oil pump may be in my near future. Interesting, as I believe this one is new with the engine and probably has less than 3000 miles on it.

Thanks for the input, fellas. Other than a failing (new) oil pump, I hope there's not another root cause.


This teener may not be combat ready for a couple of weeks then.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

[bkrantz]

What would cause the pin to drift?

The pin drifts when the pump is failing.

Between the pin depth and the galling on the idler gear I'd say that one is failing.

On the old Club site Jake had a thread that showed what a normal, failing and failed oil pump looked like. I can't find it now, but my (admittedly foggy) memory is throwing red flags looking at your pump.

Zach

Agreed, I would also say the pump is failing. What is causing the gears to be wearing against the cover? There must be metal shavings in the oil. Good thing you caught it now.

Is that because the cover to gear clearance is too tight? And does that depend on gasket thickness?

[brant]

Bug type pumps always used sealing nut with the same material as in the case bolts. Can't tell IF your using that style nut on your cover

Mark

Is there an online source for these?
My pump leaks. And I don’t think the nuts are sealed
I didn’t know they should be
(Bug steel cover)
Brant

[BeatNavy]

I see these on Ebay Brant:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/192485524135

I'm thinking about buying some. Previously I used Loctite 565 on the threads, which I think worked ok. But these are interesting.

New pump and cover on order. I hope that's all it is unless someone can think of another possible root cause.

[brant]

Thanks again Rob!

[maf914]

What type oil pump is this? Is it a Type 1 Schadek? It doesn't appear to be a stock Type 4 pump. On the Aircooled.net site the photo of the Schadek pump seems to indicate the gear pins being recessed, but I don't know what it should be.

From Aircooled.net:

Schadek Oil Pump

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Schadek-26mm-...7ak-26mm-t4.htm

Cover Plate

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Oil-Pump-Cove...11-115-141c.htm

Sealing Nuts

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/8mm-Self-Seal...111-115-161.htm

[BeatNavy]

It is a Schadek. I purchased a replacement pump and cover from LN (Type 4 store). They sell both that have been already modified for Type 4. That's what I originally used on my 2056.

Is anyone currently using a version of these sealing nuts? I can't find any info, but I assume you don't use/need lockwashers with them, as that would kind of defeat the purpose.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[brant]

It is a Schadek. I purchased a replacement pump and cover from LN (Type 4 store). They sell both that have been already modified for Type 4. That's what I originally used on my 2056.

Is anyone currently using a version of these sealing nuts? I can't find any info, but I assume you don't use/need lockwashers with them, as that would kind of defeat the purpose.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

I assume the same, but have zero real world experience

[rfinegan]

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/8mm-Self-Seal...111-115-161.htm


one time use nut..torque and done. Nothing else needed. (see web page)

[rfinegan]

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/8mm-Self-Seal...111-115-161.htm

I was advised that a lot of the new Schadek oil pump have been made under sized and require O ring or mods to make to them seal to the case. If the oil pump goes on EZ... and not pressed in its to small and the result is sucking air from the inlet of the pump and not oil from the pick up.

European motor works has a fix/sleeve to address this. I hear the O rings do not work too good to fix the sucking of air, but better then nothing?

IM concerned on my current builds, as I too had a under sized pump and I choose to seal with red 581 sealer (wish me luck)as I already had this pump purchased and the fix is an updated fixed pump with the sleeve already installed and turned down

[autopro]

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/8mm-Self-Seal...111-115-161.htm

I was advised that a lot of the new Schadek oil pump have been made under sized and require O ring or mods to make to them seal to the case. If the oil pump goes on EZ... and not pressed in its to small and the result is sucking air from the inlet of the pump and not oil from the pick up.

European motor works has a fix/sleeve to address this. I hear the O rings do not work too good to fix the sucking of air, but better then nothing?

IM concerned on my current builds, as I too had a under sized pump and I choose to seal with red 581 sealer (wish me luck)as I already had this pump purchased and the fix is an updated fixed pump with the sleeve already installed and turned down

I spoke with Jorge yesterday about their oil pump modifications and I will be getting one for my build. I'll post some pics once I go pick up my case and parts from them

[BeatNavy]

Received my new modified Schadek 30mm pump, new cover, and type 1 oil pump cover nuts this weekend. I took all kinds of measurements on the gears and pin depth of both the one on my engine as well as the new pump to see if I could figure out what happened, or specifically why the lower gear stood too proud against the cover. Couldn't find any smoking gun.

Part of me is tempted to avoid the trouble of wrangling the original pump housing out of the case to replace with the new one and just swap out the gears from the new pump. But I'll probably bite the bullet and replace the entire pump. Could be "fun."

New pump housing with gears, modified cover, and type 1 cover sealing nuts from ebay.

[rfinegan]

Did you go with the Modified Pump from EMW (Jorge)? Fixing the OD pump problem?