Early vs Late 914-4 Front Brakes, aka CBPerformance 5 bolt discs? Options

[tomeric914]

edit: Scroll to post 15 here http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s=&...t&p=2985423

https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/4182.htm

Somewhat expensive, but has anyone tried these on a 914?

Appears to have the same bearings as 914.

Might fit 70-71 914-4 but not sure about later years

[raynekat]

The price looks reasonable to me. Other than that....can't comment. I went the 911 part route when I upgraded my car to 5 bolt.

[Chris914n6]

Slotted rotors just shave the pads so no way I would buy those rotors.

No benefit to drilled solid rotors either except weight loss.

Rotors are likely from an early 912 so if we could buy just the hubs that would be great, assuming they fit.

[sportlicherFahrer]

Early and late 914 rotors are from the 411 parts bin. The CB kits use rotors that are compatible with Type 1 disc brakes, so I think the rotor to caliper position is wrong even for early cars. Just called to ask about fitment, and they don't know either.

Replacement rotors look different from 912 parts as well. Not sure if a non-slotted or drilled rotor is available. CB likes to keep things close and/or proprietary when it comes to stuff like this.

[euro911]

I would suspect that they're designed for Beetles, Ghias and Busses, etc. that have the original VW torsion bar front suspension systems (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

You'd need to get to the person at CB who decided to carry them. You'd think 'somebody' there has to know (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

[sportlicherFahrer]

Did more digging, and it looks like the center section of the hub where the bearings are installed is physically not deep enough by .426" to fit on a 914 spindle. On top of that, the rotor thickness new for the bug rotor is the same as discard thickness for a 914, so the caliper probably wouldn't be too happy. Don't think there's a way to easily make these work on any -4 914.

Would be cool if something like this did become available to provide a different 5 lug solution. Pretty niche market though... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

[tomeric914]

Did more digging, and it looks like the center section of the hub where the bearings are installed is physically not deep enough by .426" to fit on a 914 spindle. On top of that, the rotor thickness new for the bug rotor is the same as discard thickness for a 914, so the caliper probably wouldn't be too happy. Don't think there's a way to easily make these work on any -4 914.

Nice! Where did you find the detailed info on their hub design?

I know these are for VW Type 1 applications and thought that the early 70-71 914 used the same discs. I did read that a change was made in August of 71 because they found that the thinner discs were flexing under cornering. The change was a slightly thicker disc (11mm) and a thicker, reinforced hub (the .426" dimension).

As for rotors, I am pretty sure the the CB bolts rotors from a Ford product to their hubs for both front and rear applications. For the fronts, they got fancy with the cross drilling.

Back in the day, the easy way was to use 911 front suspension parts. Now those are more difficult to come by. I'm half tempted to design my own hub and bolt up a rotor if there is interest.

[Chris914n6]

Back in the day, the easy way was to use 911 front suspension parts. Now those are more difficult to come by. I'm half tempted to design my own hub and bolt up a rotor if there is interest.

There have been a few cnc one-offs.

4-lug with vented rotor
5-lug with vented rotor

Sole reason we buy the 911 struts is the vented rotor & other brake upgrades. Problem has always been no factory hub fits the 914 spindle. Everything else is a 911 copy.

So the market for your hub is everybody that has upgraded the powerplant...

[sportlicherFahrer]

Nice! Where did you find the detailed info on their hub design?

I know these are for VW Type 1 applications and thought that the early 70-71 914 used the same discs. I did read that a change was made in August of 71 because they found that the thinner discs were flexing under cornering. The change was a slightly thicker disc (11mm) and a thicker, reinforced hub (the .426" dimension).

As for rotors, I am pretty sure the the CB bolts rotors from a Ford product to their hubs for both front and rear applications. For the fronts, they got fancy with the cross drilling.

Back in the day, the easy way was to use 911 front suspension parts. Now those are more difficult to come by. I'm half tempted to design my own hub and bolt up a rotor if there is interest.

I didn't get dimensions on their hub directly, but compared rotors for a Type 1 vs. a 914 on the Raybestos catalog. Being as these are designed for Type 1 fitment, I figured it was safe to assume the bearing portion of the hub had specs to replicate that of a Type 1 rotor since it has to fit on a Type 1 spindle.

[Literati914]

The beetles, 411/412 have the same spindle dimensions as the 914 and the hub/rotors will fit up… there are companies in Germany that sell 5 lug and vented up-grades for the VW scene, which the 914 guys also take advantage of. I’d go the 5-lug vented on stock 914 strut route but shipping from Germany would be too much. So an alternative that I’ve been contemplating are these from Cip1:

https://www2.cip1.com/acc-c10-6742/

I’d look at the Chevy lug holes as a weight advantage (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)


.

[tomeric914]

There have been a few cnc one-offs.

Paging @Mueller

I didn't get dimensions on their hub directly, but compared rotors for a Type 1 vs. a 914 on the Raybestos catalog.

I found VW T1 rotor dimensions on Brembo's website. Nothing on 914 or 411/412. Thank you for reminding me of the Raybestos website! Still digging...

The beetles, 411/412 have the same spindle dimensions as the 914 and the hub/rotors will fit up…

VW T1 rotors will fit 914 spindles before August of 1972.

411/412 and 914 rotors are the same for August 1972 and up.

edit: I don't believe that VW T1 rotors fit August 1972 and up 914 spindles.

[Chris914n6]

I think the 914 spindles are all the same. The difference is balljoint pin type, and the caliper/rotor combo. The caliper offset was changed to match the later rotor offset.

[Literati914]

The beetles, 411/412 have the same spindle dimensions as the 914 and the hub/rotors will fit up…

VW T1 rotors will fit 914 spindles before August of 1972.

411/412 and 914 rotors are the same for August 1972 and up.

I don't believe that VW T1 rotors fit August 1972 and up 914 spindles.

First, I’ll admit to not remembering the years that encompass the term ‘Type 1, etc’ I always forget. But the VW rotor/hub combos that I’m referring to are from when the ball joint axles started I guess (‘67 I believe). Anyway I was told there was no problem with the late struts as well as the early.. from one of our German forum members. It’s been some time back though so I do not remember the details of the conversation, but that was the jist.
What I’m thinking is that it’d be easier to use these hub/rotor combos with the earlier but that it could be done on later struts too depending on what caliper you used - or using a small spacer between the strut and caliper maybe. The German member that’s done this was using early strut, 4 lug vented rotors and early 3” 911 calipers that had a built in spacer per usual for vented discs.


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[djway]

I took some VW rotors over to Bruce stones shop a while back and compared to early and late 914. The early 914 strut will take the VW disc. Bug, Ghia, T3 ball joint rotors are all the same. Some of the Supers are different.

[Literati914]

@djway

Thanks for confirming & what was it exactly that kept the late struts from working ? I have both early and late but it’ll be a while before I get around to buying a set of these to see for myself.. thx


.

[tomeric914]

Thanks to @Eric_Shea and everyone's input above, I think I may have the summary below correct.

Early is before August of 1972. Late is after August of 1972:

- All 914-4 spindles are the same and use the same bearings

- There is a difference in part number for the strut assembly but that is related to the ball joint attachment. Early had the pinch bolt, late had the tapered bolt

- Early 914 used a VW Type 1 rotor. Late 914 used a 411/412 rotor. Late rotors were thicker with more reinforcement in the hub to prevent flexing of the rotor while cornering.

- Relative to the spindle, the later rotors had a different offset. Therefore, later calipers had a different offset. The later caliper also had to accommodate the thicker rotor

Next step is to purchase either the CBPerformance rotors or another off the shelf T1 rotor already drilled for 5 bolt and report back!

[ChrisFoley]

- There is a difference in part number for the strut assembly but that is related to the ball joint attachment. Early had the pinch bolt, late had the tapered bolt

When the rotor was changed, the caliper offset on the strut also changed. The knuckle castings are different between early and late struts.

[GregAmy]

If you want to use late 914 calipers onto an early 914 and use Type 1 rotors...then if I understand the above discussion correctly I probably have your droid...

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...=356856&hl=

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...=356948&hl=

[djway]

I considered the CB rotors and the Sabro rotors that you can get from Europe.
I decided to go with a kit Lanner made for me. He can actually do early and late struts.
My thread.
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...p;#entry2880692

[tomeric914]

Now that I have the 914 in my shop, the plot thickens!

The stock 914 rotor inside face to caliper mounting face is about 21mm

The T1 or early 914, 5 bolt drilled rotor mounted on the '74 spindle has a rotor inside face to caliper mounting face of about 31.5mm

I don't have a set of early calipers to compare to late calipers, but I'm pretty sure that difference in offset isn't ~10mm @Eric_Shea ?

So it appears that there is a difference in calipers as well as struts (as @ChrisFoley pointed out) early vs late with respect to overall caliper offset. How much that difference was, wasn't known until now.