Brake Bleeding issues, 'again' Options

[pthughes]

Hi All,

Seeking sage advice, as I am finally admitting defeat somewhat. I have read over and over all articles on bleeding, from here and all the part site tech articles. As one should. But, I am stumped.

First, I have a 1976 2.0. I lost 2nd gear (I should say it welded itself onto the shaft), so with the help of Dr. Evil's dvds, got that tranny rebuilt, and then moved houses. For the last 3 years, the car has sat up on blocks, as I slowly between health issues rebuilt the entire suspension, steering gear, shocks, etc.

All 4 calipers were gone thru, the rears being totally rebuilt. Also in is a new 19mm master cylinder from 914 Rubber. I say this, as, well the car has been undriven for 3 years. (hey, I have turned it over and sat in it monthly, with sunglasses on, and a beer). (I have also continually checked for caliper leaks, drips, and anything coming from the MC. Nothing)

So, with excitement, filled the brake fluid. First, I bled the left front lower bleeder, gently pushing the brake pedal. Filled fluid again, and used the Motive Speed bleeder. (which I thought is impressive, btw.) Right rear, bottom, then top bleeders, worked my way around the wheels in the correct order. (I should say here, I have triple checked the rear brake pad clearance, and it is spot on) I did this bleeding process about 4 times, overall.

Spongy pedal, not getting any firmness until more than 1/2 way down. Pump the brakes, I get a wee bit firmer, but it seems to fade ever so slowly.

Grabbed my father, and switched to him pumping and me bleeding, thinking a human touch would work. Twice around the car. Same. But, he did enjoy sitting in the car, although there was a slight issue getting him out. (He's 83, and well, while you can fall into these 914's, you really cant reverse that and fall out.)

Read some more. Located the brake proportioning valve, and glared at it. It looks like its been in a dusty barn for 30 years. With some reading advice, I gave it multiple gentle bangs or taps, whichever you prefer to hear. Back to bleeding, knowing this had to do the trick.

Nope. Pedal is still about 1/2 way down before I get firmness, and a little harder if I pump 2-3 times.

So here I am. I could bleed some more, but I think I am missing something. I do have the absolute clearest brake fluid in my lines on the West Coast, but I do not have firm brakes. Technically, to me it feels like a large bubble is somewhere, although I cannot get even the tinniest bubbles out of the system anymore.

I will likely hang under the car tonight, again checking all connections. (Brake fluid reservoir does not deplete, nor can I find any drips, but, hey, why not.)

As an old VW guy, we used to adjust the MC rod down by the brake pedal. Cant seem to find anything on that for the 914. 'Could' it be a faulty proportioning valve? Should I bang on it more, replace it, or rebuild it? (I dont know if such is possible for either option). Am I missing something in the bleeding process?

Basically, a full brake rebuild has left me with spongy brakes which I would say leave the car unsafe to drive.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. I am no real hurry, because I also have to wrap my head around adjusting a newly built shifter onto the long rod, which has also got me in stitches. But that's another post (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Thanks all - I wish someone tells me I have or am doing something wrong to get this remedied.

[emerygt350]

I just bled my brakes this morning. Wish I had sage advice. I only used the top bleeder on each caliper, but no clear idea why, just what I saw others doing. I did have a 9 year old operating the brake pedal, maybe that helps. He hasn't had any problem falling out of the car. I give that proportioning valve the side eye whenever I am under there, knowing full well it can't be up to any good.

Nice and tight with two little taps. Never goes much more than 1/3 down even on the first pump. Still takes some good pressure to get them to bite but they work.

[pthughes]

I just bled my brakes this morning. Wish I had sage advice. I only used the top bleeder on each caliper, but no clear idea why, just what I saw others doing. I did have a 9 year old operating the brake pedal, maybe that helps. He hasn't had any problem falling out of the car. I give that proportioning valve the side eye whenever I am under there, knowing full well it can't be up to any good.

Nice and tight with two little taps. Never goes much more than 1/3 down even on the first pump. Still takes some good pressure to get them to bite but they work.

Has to be the 9yr old. I will send you round trip tickets for him, and feed him, if he wants to get out of school for a day. Glad to hear you were successful.

[Front yard mechanic]

I bleed mine by myself but I use a little bottle with a tube run to the bottom it has a magnet so I just stick it on the rotor . Start on the passenger rear , fill the resovoir push the petal 2 to 3 times the tube keeps the fluid free on bubbles . Tighten the fitting and go to the other back brake , then to the front passenger then home. Just keep filling the resovoir as you go. Keep trying and dont (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

[Van B]

How much pressure in the motive bleeder?

[Chris914n6]

I just put in a new 914rubber m/c also. It was a unique experience in that I had to pump the brakes like 300 times to get the air out of the m/c.

I use the hand pump at the caliper to bleed the brakes and that works 99% of the time, but thinking for this, being a mostly dry m/c, must have held onto some air. I didn't 'bench' bleed as they suggested as it makes a mess during install, specially if you have a 911 underbody swaybar in the way. It also might be the upward angle that caused a problem at first as I did this on my driveway.

[rjames]

I always struggled to fully get all of the air out of the lines until I started using the Motive pressure bleeder at the reservoir to push fluid through the system paired with speed bleeders on each caliper. (The Motive alone wasn’t enough)
Then it was cake.

Another good tip I got from someone here was to run long tubes from the bleeders back to the reservoir once all the old fluid is gone. You’ll be able to see when there’s no more air in the lines while you’re sitting in the car pumping the brakes, and you won’t waste fluid because you’ll be pumping it back into the reservoir. Because why throw out new fluid just because it has air bubbles in it? Plus it saves you from constantly having to check the fluid level and refill.

[iankarr]

To adjust the pedal-to-Mc plunger, loosen the retaining nut on the pushrod behind the pedal, extend till it contacts the plunger, then back off 1mm. Assuming you have no leaks in the system, you just need to keep bleeding and tapping the calipers lightly with a hammer till the air is out and you have a mildly firm pedal. Then drive carefully on a bumpy road and bleed again. Per Eric at PMB, new caliper seals need to work in a bit before full pedal firmness is achieved.

[mgphoto]

You have to crack the highest fitting on the proportion valve while pressure is applied to the brake pedal, you must tighten the fitting before the pedal reaches the floor, do this a few times and put a rag around the fitting or brake fluid will spray everywhere.

[mgp4591]

After all of the previous suggestions are exhausted, you can get some line clamps for your rubber lines. They're not much and you'll be able to isolate each wheel to help locate the pervasive bubble. You'll only buy them once but there's a good chance you'll be glad you have them in the future.

[emerygt350]

Isn't bench bleeding the m/c a thing or does the remote reservoir make that impossible?

[mate914]

Isn't bench bleeding the m/c a thing or does the remote reservoir make that impossible?

You got it...

[mate914]

Did you bench bleed the master cylinder?
All new MC need to be cleaned and bench bleed or you will have about 40 hours bleed time.
Take it back off and start again.

Keep up the good fight..
Matt (IMG:style_emoticons/default/flag.gif)

Hi All,

Seeking sage advice, as I am finally admitting defeat somewhat. I have read over and over all articles on bleeding, from here and all the part site tech articles. As one should. But, I am stumped.

First, I have a 1976 2.0. I lost 2nd gear (I should say it welded itself onto the shaft), so with the help of Dr. Evil's dvds, got that tranny rebuilt, and then moved houses. For the last 3 years, the car has sat up on blocks, as I slowly between health issues rebuilt the entire suspension, steering gear, shocks, etc.

All 4 calipers were gone thru, the rears being totally rebuilt. Also in is a new 19mm master cylinder from 914 Rubber. I say this, as, well the car has been undriven for 3 years. (hey, I have turned it over and sat in it monthly, with sunglasses on, and a beer). (I have also continually checked for caliper leaks, drips, and anything coming from the MC. Nothing)

So, with excitement, filled the brake fluid. First, I bled the left front lower bleeder, gently pushing the brake pedal. Filled fluid again, and used the Motive Speed bleeder. (which I thought is impressive, btw.) Right rear, bottom, then top bleeders, worked my way around the wheels in the correct order. (I should say here, I have triple checked the rear brake pad clearance, and it is spot on) I did this bleeding process about 4 times, overall.

Spongy pedal, not getting any firmness until more than 1/2 way down. Pump the brakes, I get a wee bit firmer, but it seems to fade ever so slowly.

Grabbed my father, and switched to him pumping and me bleeding, thinking a human touch would work. Twice around the car. Same. But, he did enjoy sitting in the car, although there was a slight issue getting him out. (He's 83, and well, while you can fall into these 914's, you really cant reverse that and fall out.)

Read some more. Located the brake proportioning valve, and glared at it. It looks like its been in a dusty barn for 30 years. With some reading advice, I gave it multiple gentle bangs or taps, whichever you prefer to hear. Back to bleeding, knowing this had to do the trick.

Nope. Pedal is still about 1/2 way down before I get firmness, and a little harder if I pump 2-3 times.

So here I am. I could bleed some more, but I think I am missing something. I do have the absolute clearest brake fluid in my lines on the West Coast, but I do not have firm brakes. Technically, to me it feels like a large bubble is somewhere, although I cannot get even the tinniest bubbles out of the system anymore.

I will likely hang under the car tonight, again checking all connections. (Brake fluid reservoir does not deplete, nor can I find any drips, but, hey, why not.)

As an old VW guy, we used to adjust the MC rod down by the brake pedal. Cant seem to find anything on that for the 914. 'Could' it be a faulty proportioning valve? Should I bang on it more, replace it, or rebuild it? (I dont know if such is possible for either option). Am I missing something in the bleeding process?

Basically, a full brake rebuild has left me with spongy brakes which I would say leave the car unsafe to drive.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. I am no real hurry, because I also have to wrap my head around adjusting a newly built shifter onto the long rod, which has also got me in stitches. But that's another post (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Thanks all - I wish someone tells me I have or am doing something wrong to get this remedied.

[rjames]

Did you bench bleed the master cylinder?
All new MC need to be cleaned and bench bleed or you will have about 40 hours bleed time.
Take it back off and start again.

Keep up the good fight..
Matt (IMG:style_emoticons/default/flag.gif)

Not true
I didn’t bench bleed the new MC when I installed it and I finished the brake bleeding job in an hour or so using the Motiv pressure bleeder and speed bleeder valves.
However, installing the MC itself felt like a 40 hour job. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

[mgphoto]

How much pressure in the motive bleeder?

You don’t need more than 8 psi for the power bleeder.

[914e]

All 4 calipers were gone thru, the rears being totally rebuilt. Also in is a new 19mm master cylinder from 914 Rubber. I say this, as, well the car has been undriven for 3 years. (hey, I have turned it over and sat in it monthly, with sunglasses on, and a beer). (I have also continually checked for caliper leaks, drips, and anything coming from the MC. Nothing)

So, with excitement, filled the brake fluid. First, I bled the left front lower bleeder, gently pushing the brake pedal. Filled fluid again, and used the Motive Speed bleeder. (which I thought is impressive, btw.) Right rear, bottom, then top bleeders, worked my way around the wheels in the correct order. (I should say here, I have triple checked the rear brake pad clearance, and it is spot on) I did this bleeding process about 4 times, overall.

Spongy pedal, not getting any firmness until more than 1/2 way down. Pump the brakes, I get a wee bit firmer, but it seems to fade ever so slowly.

Nope. Pedal is still about 1/2 way down before I get firmness, and a little harder if I pump 2-3 times.

You say you filled the brake fluid. Was this sitting for years without brake fluid? If so the seals in the MC might have been dry and damaged. Did you bench bleed the MC? I suspect the front seals of the MC are damaged.
Is the brake warning light working? When you open the bleeder and someone is pressing the pedal the light should go on. and back off when they release it. If it is going on without opening the bleeder you are losing pressure in one of the the two brake circuits. Often a MC can leak internally without leaking fluid to the outside.

[mate914]

Did you bench bleed the master cylinder?
All new MC need to be cleaned and bench bleed or you will have about 40 hours bleed time.
Take it back off and start again.

Keep up the good fight..
Matt (IMG:style_emoticons/default/flag.gif)

Not true
I didn’t bench bleed the new MC when I installed it and I finished the brake bleeding job in an hour or so using the Motiv pressure bleeder and speed bleeder valves.
However, installing the MC itself felt like a 40 hour job. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Good for you.
Matt (IMG:style_emoticons/default/flag.gif)

[infraredcalvin]

At this point I’d start to suspect the M/C as well. I had a new 21mm ATE last less than 1000 miles before it developed an internal leak. Firm brakes, then a slow depressurization to the floor. Replaced and have had no issues with the new one.

BTW I’ve always bleed my brakes alone, using solely a motive bleeder and don’t bench bleed anything. It’s always worked great across multiple p cars with no issues.

When installing new I crack all bleeders at once, and wait for bubbles to stop while walking around tapping all with hammer, then I close off furthest to closest. I test pedal pressure, which is usually great, then I bleed the one at a time method for piece of mind.

[robkammer]

PT: I feel your pain. About this time last year I did a complete brake job, everything but the steel lines. Calipers and valve rebuild by the best, 914 quick master. After much back and forth with leaking components I was ready to bleed. And bleed and bleed. And bleed and drive and repeat. I started with the Motive pressure jug on the reservoir but didn't want to use more than about 10 lbs of pressure, I don't really think the 914 rubber quick lines are meant to hold pressure. Then we used the old pump and bleed method, then I borrowed a Motive vacuum bleeder, than we went back to pumping.
Drove some more, bled some more, repeated again and again and finally had brakes I could rely on.
After that and about 350 miles I had put about a full gallon of fluid through the system.
But I had brakes!
This winter I installed a set of replacement calipers, again from the best, and have bled the system but really don't have very good pedal. Here we go again.
I'm going to leave the pedal board out and check the push rod once I've been able to put some miles on it and have decent pedal feel.
These brakes have been such a nightmare I just made an appointment to have someone else replace pads on my 986. Shameful.
I hope you fare much better than I did.
Rob

[mlindner]

I had the same problem....after many tries, I applied some compressed air to the top of the brake fluid reservoir. Put a rage around the air nozzle and cap opening. Few pumps later, nice had peddle. Best, Mark