Brake Fade?, Thought I was dead |
|
Porsche, and the Porsche crest are registered trademarks of Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG.
This site is not affiliated with Porsche in any way. Its only purpose is to provide an online forum for car enthusiasts. All other trademarks are property of their respective owners. |
|
Brake Fade?, Thought I was dead |
Trevorg7 |
Aug 5 2005, 09:13 AM
Post
#1
|
Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,242 Joined: 7-December 04 From: Highland Village, TX Member No.: 3,241 Region Association: Southwest Region |
Nothing like your brake peddle hitting the floor while exiting the freeway at 65 to get your heart started in the morning.
So, north bound 280 exiting to 92 and my brake peddle hits the floor (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif) ! I manage not to hit anyone and coast to a surface street. After limping down the street a bit, 10 mins, the brake peddle came back and I was able to stop again. Was this brake fade? Seems unsafe to drive home but???? I've done all brakes in the past three months and bleed the brakes. Could it have been just a bubble I missed or pure brake fade? Thoughts? Thanks T |
VegasRacer |
Aug 5 2005, 09:20 AM
Post
#2
|
ELVIRA Group: Benefactors Posts: 8,524 Joined: 27-March 03 From: Between Scylla and Charybdis Member No.: 481 Region Association: None |
'Brake Fade' occurs from heat buildup due to repeated or prolonged brake application. If your brakes were just suddenly gone for some other reason, you have a different serious problem that needs to be addressed.
|
Trevorg7 |
Aug 5 2005, 09:28 AM
Post
#3
|
Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,242 Joined: 7-December 04 From: Highland Village, TX Member No.: 3,241 Region Association: Southwest Region |
Good point. I was a freeway speed for 30 mins with minimal or no braking.
Further analysis; no obvious leaks and the brake fluid reservoir is at the same level it was two weeks ago. T |
Mueller |
Aug 5 2005, 09:28 AM
Post
#4
|
914 Freak! Group: Members Posts: 17,146 Joined: 4-January 03 From: Antioch, CA Member No.: 87 Region Association: None |
bad mastercylinder??
any leaks @ the fittings? I had a line come loose on my car once...luckly I was just driving down my street.. |
goose2 |
Aug 5 2005, 09:35 AM
Post
#5
|
Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 976 Joined: 30-March 05 From: Eugene, Oregon Member No.: 3,847 Region Association: Pacific Northwest |
sounds like a master cylinder problem to me
|
mihai914 |
Aug 5 2005, 09:36 AM
Post
#6
|
Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 800 Joined: 2-March 05 From: Montreal, QC Member No.: 3,697 Region Association: None |
Also add a sticking piston or rear brake pads too tight.
|
Trevorg7 |
Aug 5 2005, 09:43 AM
Post
#7
|
Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,242 Joined: 7-December 04 From: Highland Village, TX Member No.: 3,241 Region Association: Southwest Region |
Great feedback guys....so.....questions...
would a bad mastercylinder 'fade' but come back and work functionally; again, no leaks present? If a caliper was dragging, it would cause excesive heat therefore fadding, true? T |
seanery |
Aug 5 2005, 09:47 AM
Post
#8
|
waiting to rebuild whitey! Group: Retired Admin Posts: 15,854 Joined: 7-January 03 From: Indy Member No.: 100 Region Association: None |
a dragging caliper would most likely cause a pulling feeling, too
|
Porsche Rescue |
Aug 5 2005, 10:11 AM
Post
#9
|
Saving and Enjoying Old Porsches Group: Members Posts: 2,978 Joined: 31-December 02 From: Bend, Oregon Member No.: 64 Region Association: None |
I don't think "fade" applies at all to your experience. The pedal does not go to the floor with fade. It simply requires more pedal pressure while achieving less braking. Since you did not overheat the system you can also eliminate "boiling" the fluid as the cause. You lost hydraulic pressure for some reason. Chase down the problem before doing any more driving. Next time could have a different ending.
|
goose2 |
Aug 5 2005, 10:12 AM
Post
#10
|
Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 976 Joined: 30-March 05 From: Eugene, Oregon Member No.: 3,847 Region Association: Pacific Northwest |
If a piston is sticking, you will feel it when coasting to a stop...will feel like you are applying the brakes (which you are, in effect). This could cause heat build up and fade, but only on that caliper...unless it gets hot enough to boil the fluid. Feel the wheel hubs after a drive and see if any are heating up...another telltale for sticking calipers. If a master cylinder seal is giving up, it CAN allow the pedal to go to the floor by letting the fluid bypass the seal without an external leak. This is kinda rare, but I've seen it happen. I'd check everything (look under the carpet by the M/C for wet spots) , rebleed the system, make sure my insurance was paid up, and try again.
Jim's right about "fade"....wrong symptoms. |
bondo |
Aug 5 2005, 10:22 AM
Post
#11
|
Practicing my perpendicular parking Group: Members Posts: 4,277 Joined: 19-April 03 From: Los Osos, CA Member No.: 587 Region Association: Central California |
I'd say if you can't find anything wrong, replace the master cylinder anyways. If it happens again before you get to that, try pumping the pedal. It may give you some braking back.
|
ArtechnikA |
Aug 5 2005, 10:31 AM
Post
#12
|
||
rich herzog Group: Members Posts: 7,390 Joined: 4-April 03 From: Salted Roads, PA Member No.: 513 Region Association: None |
yes. usually right before it 'fades' once and for all. corrosion deep in the bore can lead to roughness that chews up the piston seals. most of the time (until ultimate failure) they'll work okay. now and then a corocion crater may line up with a bit of chewed seal and you get an internal leak. no fluid leaves the MC, but neither did any get pressurised. there have been about a billion and six discussions about whether you should use a 17mm or 19mm MC; a search will turn up many discussions, all of which turn out the same way. (i.e. - pick one) i wouldn't wait long on this. this weekend is not too soon. get at least 2 quarts of whatever brake fluid you want to run - Ate Gold or Super Blue is a safe choice, or Valvoline SynPower, for instance. |
||
Joe Bob |
Aug 5 2005, 10:38 AM
Post
#13
|
Retired admin, banned a few times Group: Members Posts: 17,427 Joined: 24-December 02 From: Boulder CO Member No.: 5 Region Association: None |
Most likely the MC, also I would consider that in conjunction with contaminated fluid. When was the last time THAT was changed, Hmmmm? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/cool_shades.gif) Water entrained in the old nasty crappy fluid that hasn't been changed since the Nixon administration will corrode a cylinder.....
Another item....the pedal board...got one? Sometimes people leave those out and the brake pedal will bottom out due to "fade" or when bleeding brakes or from a leak will cause the piston to bottom out/go past the point of design....not gud. Brakes....they do a body GUD.... |
URY914 |
Aug 5 2005, 10:39 AM
Post
#14
|
I built the lightest 914 in the history of mankind. Group: Members Posts: 121,010 Joined: 3-February 03 From: Jacksonville, FL Member No.: 222 Region Association: None |
|
Dr. Roger |
Aug 5 2005, 10:41 AM
Post
#15
|
A bat out of hell. Group: Members Posts: 3,944 Joined: 31-January 05 From: Hercules, California Member No.: 3,533 Region Association: Northern California |
You did not mention weather nor not you could recover some pedal when pumping it.
Also you did not mention if you reset rear caliper pad clearance. Also you didn't mention if you bled your proportioning valve. Is the master cylinder mounting points rusted? All of these can give the results you experienced. Best regards, Official member of "914club Brain Trust". |
Trekkor |
Aug 5 2005, 10:43 AM
Post
#16
|
I do things... Group: Members Posts: 7,809 Joined: 2-December 03 From: Napa, Ca Member No.: 1,413 Region Association: Northern California |
I had true brake fade at Streets of Willow during our WCC track day.
Conditions: Fast driving ( 65-100 mph ) and HARD braking every 10-20 seconds for 10-12 minutes straight. Add to this older stock brake pads and very old, water contaminated brake fluid. The older pads means harder, longer brake application. More heat. When the calipers get boiling hot after about 9 minutes the water in the brake fluid starts to boil and vaporize creating bubbles ( liquid turning into a gas ) in the system. The pedal gets softer and softer until you have no brakes. Not fun. As soon as I detected ANY loss of braking power, I went back to the pits, right away. Bleeding the brakes ( purging the air out of the calipers ) gives you brakes, but only until they heat up again. A few of us experienced this. Solution is to flush the old fluid out at regular intervals, not waiting for symtoms of fade. My SS lines and race pads didn't hurt either. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif) KT |
Rough_Rider |
Aug 5 2005, 10:46 AM
Post
#17
|
Smurf Zone Group: Members Posts: 525 Joined: 16-August 04 From: Beaverton, OR Member No.: 2,547 |
Check your lug nust, Seriously....
If any are loose the rotor can wobble ever so slightly. This backs the pistons into their bores. Pumping the pedal brings them back into place. Also check your rotors for warpage, this causes the same effect. |
Trevorg7 |
Aug 5 2005, 12:16 PM
Post
#18
|
Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,242 Joined: 7-December 04 From: Highland Village, TX Member No.: 3,241 Region Association: Southwest Region |
Thank you all for the info.
To answer more questions; pumping did not bring them back right away. fluid changed < 6 months ago. As the brakes 'came back' pumping did help. Not too sure on the rest of the stuff. I'm at my office in San Mateo; shop recomendations? as I dont feel good about the 40 mile drive home in the current situation. HPH is 5 miles away. Are there others? T |
TravisNeff |
Aug 5 2005, 01:29 PM
Post
#19
|
914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 5,082 Joined: 20-March 03 From: Mesa, AZ Member No.: 447 Region Association: Southwest Region |
I had a sticky front caliper and there was just the slightest pull when driving straight, as the car was driven longer the pads in contact with the rotors got hotter and hotter. A few slow stops (street light to street light) you could feel the pedal get lower and lower - like one or maybe two applications - then nothing. It only pulled right before it all gave way under braking.
It may be a MC or a leak, but it could be like you describe as a dragging caliper. Easy check is to put your hand over each wheel, if you have a draggin caliper(s) that wheel will be freaking hot. |
Trekkor |
Aug 5 2005, 01:37 PM
Post
#20
|
I do things... Group: Members Posts: 7,809 Joined: 2-December 03 From: Napa, Ca Member No.: 1,413 Region Association: Northern California |
HPH is where many of us take our cars if we do not have time to/ want to/ know how to, do it ourselves.
Rich has worked on literally 1000's of 914's for over 30 years...Where else will you find that kind of experience? KT |
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 6th June 2024 - 02:53 AM |
All rights reserved 914World.com © since 2002 |
914World.com is the fastest growing online 914 community! We have it all, classifieds, events, forums, vendors, parts, autocross, racing, technical articles, events calendar, newsletter, restoration, gallery, archives, history and more for your Porsche 914 ... |