OT: Formula 1 tire profile, question Options

[Rand]

Somebody school me on formula 1 tires... why the tall sidewalls? In street tires, the more extreme, the lower the profile. Shorter sidewalls, less flex, more cornering traction... Seems like in anything except F1, the tires are very low profile.

[dinomium]

trying to keep the racing competitve with grooves and tall sidewalls...

[r_towle]

lower sidewall, less flex, therefore less grip.

Low profile tires looknice, but do not grip as well as properly proportioned tires.

Rich

[dlo914]

hmm...good question. after some thinking i remember seeing ricers (hondas) removing their blinged out rims in the front w/ steel rims and regular radials to gain more traction. And since top fuel dragsters need all the traction they can use at the rear they've got fatties. Similar to dragsters, the F1 cars have about the same amount of HP. Concluding my assumption...

[Aaron Cox]

QUOTE (dlo914 @ Jan 28 2006, 04:00 PM)

Similar to dragsters, the F1 cars have about the same amount of HP. Concluding my assumption...

top fuel dragsters make up to 6000hp. the motor life is measured in seconds..... usually, they have 4 injectors per cylinder, run on alcohol/methanol etc and run 70+ pounds of boost.


F1 cars dont make anywhere close to that.... BUT they last alot longer....

[Rand]

I almost mentioned "except drag cars" in my original post but didn't think it would go there. Also keep in mind that the front tires on an F1 car are higher profile than the rear tires of a GT car.

[messix]

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Jan 28 2006, 04:03 PM)

QUOTE (dlo914 @ Jan 28 2006, 04:00 PM) Similar to dragsters, the F1 cars have about the same amount of HP. Concluding my assumption... top fuel dragsters make up to 6000hp. the motor life is measured in seconds..... usually, they have 4 injectors per cylinder, run on alcohol/methanol etc and run 70+ pounds of boost. F1 cars dont make anywhere close to that.... BUT they last alot longer....

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/hijacked.gif) actually top fuel is 85% nitro and 15% methonal.

f1 i believe has a 13"rim rule so side wall hieght is related to contact patch. f1 tire rules i think also state tire dementions, nascar does the same.
google racing tires and i/m sure all this will be explained. oh. and heat durabily from heat and cornering forces track debrie all kinds of stuff.

[dlo914]

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Jan 28 2006, 03:03 PM)

QUOTE (dlo914 @ Jan 28 2006, 04:00 PM) Similar to dragsters, the F1 cars have about the same amount of HP. Concluding my assumption... top fuel dragsters make up to 6000hp. the motor life is measured in seconds..... usually, they have 4 injectors per cylinder, run on alcohol/methanol etc and run 70+ pounds of boost. F1 cars dont make anywhere close to that.... BUT they last alot longer....

FI cars are in the 1000hp range?

[messix]

i thouhgt f1 was 650-700hp

[dlo914]

isnt the technology/knowledge gained from F1 tires influencing the making of street tires?

[Rand]

Thanks Troy. That's making sense.
Shoulda Googled it, but it's more fun to discuss it in the garage. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif)

[messix]

no prob. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beer.gif)
ok let lets chew it.
the grooves stupid plan the tire manf. just made thre tires so that when the tire wore down past the grooves they had the same grip as a slick. duh wouldn't you . soo f1 makes them change the tire and have to finish the race with _ amount of groove left.

[alpha434]

Isn't the tire restriction standard for all formula type racing? Those formula Vee guys have to race with stock wheels and tires. I don't know, really. I'm kinda impartial to open wheel racing. At least for today.

[dinomium]

Fomula1.com
It the offical FIA site so of course it is completely useless!
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

[lapuwali]

The tires have tall sidewalls because the rules dictate maximum and minimum diamter of the tire, and the diameter of the rim. When the rules were laid down in the 1970s, they made sense based on tire technology of the day. Now, they're an anachronism, but kept as they are because: small rims mean small brakes, thus restricting outright speed (theoretically), which was a great idea until carbon-carbon brakes made them work so well even with the small diameters; tall sidewalls mean more flex, which keeps speeds down due to more limited cornering forces, except the tire makers manage to get more stiffness, and now more than 80% of the suspension travel in an F1 car is in the tire sidewalls (direct quote from an F1 designer); the FIA is a bunch of bloody-minded idiots.

There's been talk recently of changing the tire rules, but only to reduce rim diameter even more, or do some other stupid thing to try to make the cars slower. The rules basically aren't there to allow fully optimized cars. They're there to throw up big barriers the designers have to overcome.

The rules now restrict virtually everything on the cars, so you don't see innovative ideas anymore, because they don't fit the rules.

Next year, with the one tire manufacturer again, the rules makers can dictate things like tire compounds to control speeds, and will do so. Grooves will apparently disappear soon, and tire changes are back for next year.

As for power, the 3.0 V10s of 2005 were all making roughly 900hp. The 2.4 V8s for '06 and beyond appear to be in the 600hp range, though it's expected that will rise swiftly. For comparison, the 3.0 Cosworth DFV V8 of 1968 made 400hp, and was the most powerful engine in F1 at that time. Within a couple of years, the Cosworths were making so much power people were contemplating 4wd or six-wheeled cars (with four drive wheels in back, Williams built a prototype of this) to try to get acceptable traction out of the tires of the period. More downforce and better tires fixed that, and by the height of the turbo era in 1984, the engines were making as much as 1200hp in qualifying, for a few laps. They've never been that powerful since.

[J P Stein]

James:
These discussions are no fun when someone that knows what they are talking about shows up. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif)

[alpha434]

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Jan 28 2006, 06:53 PM)

The tires have tall sidewalls because the rules dictate maximum and minimum diamter of the tire, and the diameter of the rim. When the rules were laid down in the 1970s, they made sense based on tire technology of the day. Now, they're an anachronism, but kept as they are because: small rims mean small brakes, thus restricting outright speed (theoretically), which was a great idea until carbon-carbon brakes made them work so well even with the small diameters; tall sidewalls mean more flex, which keeps speeds down due to more limited cornering forces, except the tire makers manage to get more stiffness, and now more than 80% of the suspension travel in an F1 car is in the tire sidewalls (direct quote from an F1 designer); the FIA is a bunch of bloody-minded idiots. There's been talk recently of changing the tire rules, but only to reduce rim diameter even more, or do some other stupid thing to try to make the cars slower. The rules basically aren't there to allow fully optimized cars. They're there to throw up big barriers the designers have to overcome. The rules now restrict virtually everything on the cars, so you don't see innovative ideas anymore, because they don't fit the rules. Next year, with the one tire manufacturer again, the rules makers can dictate things like tire compounds to control speeds, and will do so. Grooves will apparently disappear soon, and tire changes are back for next year. As for power, the 3.0 V10s of 2005 were all making roughly 900hp. The 2.4 V8s for '06 and beyond appear to be in the 600hp range, though it's expected that will rise swiftly. For comparison, the 3.0 Cosworth DFV V8 of 1968 made 400hp, and was the most powerful engine in F1 at that time. Within a couple of years, the Cosworths were making so much power people were contemplating 4wd or six-wheeled cars (with four drive wheels in back, Williams built a prototype of this) to try to get acceptable traction out of the tires of the period. More downforce and better tires fixed that, and by the height of the turbo era in 1984, the engines were making as much as 1200hp in qualifying, for a few laps. They've never been that powerful since.

Yeah. Thats what I thought. And now we can talk about the unfair FIA biasing towards Ferrari and the planned move to a different racing organization in 2010. Or 2008. One that will be sponsored heavily by japanese auto manufacturors. Yeah thats right.

[Elliot_Cannon]

The only limits I would like to see is horse power. Everything else should be unlimited. There should be no retrictions on aerodynamics, tires, brakes, suspension etc.
Cheers, Elliot

[Jeroen]

F1 tires have a fairly stiff sidewall (unlike drag tires)
Most of the suspension travel on an F1 car comes from tire deflection
Current carbon suspension arms are designed to flex a certain amount. They're more like leafsprings than hinges

As noted... all just stoopid rule restrictions that the manuf. need to work around

On LeMans prototype cars you'll see 18 and 19inch wheel/tire combos

[Rand]

Makes me wonder what F1 cars could do if all restrictions were removed.