OT: how far we've come?, 35 years of non-progress Options

[lapuwali]

Hybrids are the buzzword now, and people marvel at how the latest Civic hybrid gets 50mpg.

Autoweek had a short article on the early Civics, which got 55mpg with a carb. 1.2L, 50hp, 1500lbs. Sure, they were slow, but they were described as still being fun to drive. The way most people drive modern Civics, I doubt they'd notice if they suddenly only had 50hp.

(yes, I know emissions are much better, it's quieter, it crashes better, yada, yada...)

[SirAndy]

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Mar 7 2006, 11:31 AM)

Hybrids are the buzzword now, and people marvel at how the latest Civic hybrid gets 50mpg.

what always cracks me up, look at any given new car commercial and how they now focus on how "efficient" their cars are and that they get "30 mpg" ...

wow, great! i mean, i got a car that was build in 1970 that get's 30+ mpg ...
and back then (35 years ago!), in germany, they were considered gas-guzzlers ...

this world is nuts ... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/screwy.gif)

30 mpg is not even close to being a good gas-milage, especially not for a brand new car ...
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/cool_shades.gif) Andy

PS: in 97/98/99 i leased a Renault Twingo that i used for communting. about 130 miles roundtrip every day. the car got between 40-45 mpg. just plain old normally aspirated otto motor ...

[TonyAKAVW]

QUOTE

(yes, I know emissions are much better, it's quieter, it crashes better, yada, yada...)

You said it. People want heavy, quiet, big cars with air conditioning, 500 air bags, climate control, navigation systems, ABS, power everything, a 20 inch LCD screen for the kids, 20 inch rims, etc. Everything to envelop themselves in an isolated bubble from the world. Enough safety so that even the least attentive drivers will fare well in a crash.

So for a car to do all that and get a clean 30 mpg is not bad.

I bet if you applied hybrid technologies to lightweight simple cars such as ours, the efficieny would be astonishing. If the middle east plummets into a civil war and gas prices go sky high, that may happen.

-Tony

[r_towle]

What I find amazing is that the Japanese car companies are the only ones who foresaw that the price of fossil fuel was rising....AGAIN...

This is history repeating itself...remember in the 70's when honda and toyota took over the car sales market by selling what people wanted...good looking, fun, and great gas mileage...

Well here we are again, a new generation of GM and Ford managers...all who apparently cannot read...
Lexus (toyota) finally is making a good looking hybrid...at least they will be good looking now.

I agree with andy...if honda and toyota can make a car that gets 50-75 mpg...WTF, all cars should be getting that kind of mileage..
Trucks should get 30-40mpg..

It seems that the car manufacturers are still looking at a market that does not exist...build a GTO, or a Mustang..20 mpg, sell 100k and feel good...
Or build a good looking reliable hybrid...sell 2Mm and get rich.

I feel bad for Ford and GM...they just dont seem to get it, yet they are crying poor...selling off parts of the company to stay alive...yet they still keep making gas guzzlers (put in perspective...60mpg versus 30 mpg

Rich

[turboman808]

yeah kinda noticed the same thing. What gets me though is making things more complicated for technologies sake.

Guess thats why a compact car is now over 3000lbs. To many dam gadgets in em

[Mark Henry]

QUOTE (TonyAKAVW @ Mar 7 2006, 03:50 PM)

People want heavy, quiet, big cars with air conditioning, 500 air bags, climate control, navigation systems, ABS, power everything, a 20 inch LCD screen for the kids, 20 inch rims, etc. Everything to envelop themselves in an isolated bubble from the world. Enough safety so that even the least attentive drivers will fare well in a crash.

Yup....ever check out the weights of new cars....insane.

also people have to prove their worth with big cars and trucks....like who "needs" a Hummer.






.....Well hey... i'd like a hummer....but not the truck (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

[mudfoot76]

QUOTE (SirAndy @ Mar 7 2006, 02:42 PM)

this world is nuts ... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/screwy.gif)

Hell yeah it is, I mean, just take a look around at what is going on and the fact that

[The remainder of the contents of this post have been banned for being OT, political, and other things. There's nothing else to see here, please move along...] (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ph34r.gif)


So did I tell anyone that I successfully changed a valve cover gasket on a buddy's MR2 Turbo (a '91)? That was pretty cool (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beer.gif) That car, when driven gently, will get 30+ mpg too (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wavey.gif)

[lapuwali]

The 50mpg Civic hybrid weighs 2800lbs, or 1300lbs more than the 55mpg non-hybrid not even fuel injected early Civic.

The new hybrid makes 110hp from 1.3L, where the old made 50hp from 1.2L. VTEC and tuned EFI made that difference. But fuel economy isn't part of the picture. A 1500lb car could be towed around by a 750cc engine making 60hp, but would get 60mpg or better. Without the electric bit.

However, hybrid cars get a tax break AND a sticker to use the HOV lanes in CA even with only one person in the car. This is partly for "economy", partly for emissions.

[byndbad914]

werd... my dad had a 1984 Ford Escort with a Mazda diesel in it and it got 55 mpg around town, 57 on the highway. It was a slug for sure and if there was a steep hill coming, you had better get it up over 65 if you were going to top it out above 50, but I always wanted to leave the Mustang home and borrow it for long trips (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif) We drove from Central Iowa to San Francisco for $33, then slipped down through the Grand Canyon and so forth on the way back so I think that may have been around $40 to get back (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/blink.gif)

but... that is the only one I ever saw. So they only made them one year. Americans are far too fickle about "the smell" or "that knocking noise" which always amazes me. We should have been driving more diesel cars along time ago like Europe, but because gas was cheap, nobody wanted that knocking noise. Now it is emissions, but I think diesels will be (and are being) cleaned up quite a bit.

Blows me away we have wasted all this time on electric this and hybrid that when all we needed to do was build a nice turbo diesel about 30 years ago and have been getting over 50mpg the whole time. Hell, a well boosted turbo diesel can make a (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/stromberg.gif)-load of power. The problem with the Escort was no turbo to get moving/climb hills.

[Joe Ricard]

.....Well hey... i'd like a hummer....but not the truck

Never turn down a good Hummer (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

[Cap'n Krusty]

You might think a bit about Japanese manufacturers and their image. Japanese companies are so intertwined with their government AND it's currency controls, they can safely be viewed as one entity. Their markets are highly restricted for foreign companies and investment. Toyota builds some pretty fuel efficient cars, but their highly touted hybrids get, on the average, only a couple of MPG better (if that) than conventional versions of the same product. Their CAFE is strongly affected by their steadily growing production of huge V8 powered pickups and SUVs. Nissan also builds big gas guzzling trucks. And Honda has jumped on the bandwagon, too. All the Japanese companies would be REAL comfortable if the car and truck buying public just forgot they build those things, even as the percentage of gas guzzlers in their production increases. And their wish appears to be realized. People don't even mention that part of the picture.

GM is touting flex fuel cars right now. There are thousands of ten year old flex fuel Ford Tauruses out there on the used car market, many of whose owners probably didn't even know they would run on alcohol! They were a failure in the marketplace.

I, for one, don't drink the Toyota Kool Aid. They're not the warm, fuzzy buy-one-and-save-the-environment company the spoon fed TV addicted public is being led to believe. I think our government needs to address the issue of "Japan, Inc.", and the sooner the better! The Cap'n

[TonyAKAVW]

Regarding the ethanol fuel cars... Somone was telling me that it produces more pollution to produce the fuel than it does to use regular gasoline. Its apparently a marketing gimmic and doesn't produce any reduction in the emission of pollution.

This is all based on what someone told me. Does anyone here know if this is true?

-Tony

[MrKona]

I'm amazed at how powerful the average car is these days. Granted, as cars get heavier they'll "need" more power, but still... totally voids out better gas mileage from better technology.

When I was a teenager, I lusted over the Ferrari 308, which had something like 215-230hp. Nowadays, you can buy a Hyundai that's makes that kind of horsepower. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/screwy.gif)

[riverman]

QUOTE (r_towle @ Mar 7 2006, 02:51 PM)

What I find amazing is that the Japanese car companies are the only ones who foresaw that the price of fossil fuel was rising....AGAIN... This is history repeating itself...remember in the 70's when honda and toyota took over the car sales market by selling what people wanted...good looking, fun, and great gas mileage... Well here we are again, a new generation of GM and Ford managers...all who apparently cannot read... Lexus (toyota) finally is making a good looking hybrid...at least they will be good looking now. I agree with andy...if honda and toyota can make a car that gets 50-75 mpg...WTF, all cars should be getting that kind of mileage.. Trucks should get 30-40mpg.. It seems that the car manufacturers are still looking at a market that does not exist...build a GTO, or a Mustang..20 mpg, sell 100k and feel good... Or build a good looking reliable hybrid...sell 2Mm and get rich. I feel bad for Ford and GM...they just dont seem to get it, yet they are crying poor...selling off parts of the company to stay alive...yet they still keep making gas guzzlers (put in perspective...60mpg versus 30 mpg Rich

All good points, but don't you think the auto manufacturers and the oil companies ALL know what's going on? The two markets are dependant on each other.

Big business knows EXACTLY what we want and EXACTLY what we can afford. The reason gas prices are so high is because the oil companies know we can afford to pay it. North Americans want big, powerful vehicles - the sales figures prove it. North Americans can also afford to pay for the gas they're using - if they couldn't, they wouldn't. The Baby Boomers are a generation of wealthy consumers and big business has succesfully marketed the "I can have it all" mentality to them and this leads to all these excesses.

If we all have to buy new, more efficient vehicles, so be it - that's just another round of big ticket spending. The large corporations are all multi-national and they don't really care if the cars are North American, Japanese or Swahili, just as long as they make enough profit to keep them competitive with the banks and keep their share values up.

[SoCal Driver]

I had a thought a while back.... If hybrid cars are getting 50mpg and running off of regular gas, why not build a diesel hybrid and get a lot more. If the diesel is already getting 40-50mpg on its own, why not mate up the electric motor and get 70 mpg. Just my thoughts, i know that there are more restrictions on diesels soon, so we wont see them as much in the next few years.

[blitZ]

QUOTE (SoCal Driver @ Mar 7 2006, 12:26 PM)

I had a thought a while back.... If hybrid cars are getting 50mpg and running off of regular gas, why not build a diesel hybrid and get a lot more. If the diesel is already getting 40-50mpg on its own, why not mate up the electric motor and get 70 mpg. Just my thoughts, i know that there are more restrictions on diesels soon, so we wont see them as much in the next few years.

I agree with the use of diesel for economic reasons. Most manufactures produce a large variety of diesel cars and trucks for Europe and Canada, which you can't get here, yet. Combine the economy of diesel with the bio-diesel fuels should provide an economical alternative to gas and dependency on the Middle East.

Nissan has a diesel version of the pathfinder, with a 2.5 L turbo diesel with a 6 speed manual. It has a 6000 lb towing capacity and gets 35 mpg. It can be done, just the US market is not demanding it yet.

Bio-Diesel

[MattR]

QUOTE (r_towle @ Mar 7 2006, 11:51 AM)

What I find amazing is that the Japanese car companies are the only ones who foresaw that the price of fossil fuel was rising....AGAIN...

GM owns most of the patents on fuel cell technology.

[JmuRiz]

QUOTE (byndbad914 @ Mar 7 2006, 12:07 PM)

werd... my dad had a 1984 Ford Escort with a Mazda diesel in it and it got 55 mpg around town, 57 on the highway.  It was a slug for sure and if there was a steep hill coming, you had better get it up over 65 if you were going to top it out above 50, but I always wanted to leave the Mustang home and borrow it for long trips  :D  We drove from Central Iowa to San Francisco for $33, then slipped down through the Grand Canyon and so forth on the way back so I think that may have been around $40 to get back (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/blink.gif) but... that is the only one I ever saw.  So they only made them one year.  Americans are far too fickle about "the smell" or "that knocking noise" which always amazes me.  We should have been driving more diesel cars along time ago like Europe, but because gas was cheap, nobody wanted that knocking noise.  Now it is emissions, but I think diesels will be (and are being) cleaned up quite a bit. Blows me away we have wasted all this time on electric this and hybrid that when all we needed to do was build a nice turbo diesel about 30 years ago and have been getting over 50mpg the whole time.  Hell, a well boosted turbo diesel can make a  :stromberg:-load of power.  The problem with the Escort was no turbo to get moving/climb hills.

Wow, another ford escort diesel huh? I thought my college friend's buddy was the only one with that. When they were filling up at a truck stop all the truckers rushed over saying "...stop, you're putting diesel in there..."
He also said it was a dog on hills but got from michigan to VA on a tank and a half of gas.

Also, I had a diesel truck for my last move, thing got 30mpg loaded full of crap...can't wait for low-sulfer diesel here in the states!

[Porcharu]

It is really silly, my 84 civic S (1800lbs and a hopped up 85HP carbed engine) routinely got over 50MPG, never under 40.

My 8000lb 4 wheel drive crewcab turbo diesel truck gets a little over 20MPG on the freeway 17 city. The gas versions get 10-11MPG and have less power. Lady at work has an Excursion that gets 9MPG and she commutes 80 miles a day.

I have to believe that the same technology in a smaller vehicle - say a midsized truck with a 2.5 - 3.0l modern turbo diesel should get 40mpg. and be clean. My truck is classified as low emmision vehicle. Run it on bio and it's virtually no emmision.

[KaptKaos]

With all of the interesting technology available, like variable valve timing, forced induction, electric hybrids, etc... I do not understand why engines in cars continue to be so damn big. As previously mentioned, I had cars that were smaller and plenty peppy but also got good mileage. My 90 CRX Si was a hoot to drive and always got over 35 mpg. ON a long road trip, I got over 40 MPG and I almost always had my full foot to the floor.

Why can't I get a 1.0 liter, 3 cylinder with variable valve timing and a supercharger that makes a smooth 125 HP and still gets 45 mpg?

Aside from all this is the fact that people like big cars, want 40000 airbags in them, want GPS, satellite radio, TVs for the kiddies, and all the other crap that cars have in them now. The average new car easily weighs well over 3000#, while 15 years ago, that number might have been only 2800#.

Bahh.... now I am pissed and need a beer.