914 -engine sizes- fit/wont fit???, Technical HELLLlpPPP Options

[Boldylocks]

First, I'm the owner of a 73 914 with a 1.7 liter engine that has bent/broken intake valves. I'm not a mechanic, but the cost to repair this part seems to be as much, if not more, than finding a running engine and putting it into the car.
With that said:

Can I 'drop' any 914 engine into the car??? 1.8 -2.0??

Is the mechanic correct, will it cost me nearly the same amount to simply find (FAR FROM SIMPLE) a running engine and have it put in the car???

Can I 'drop' any of the larger engines into the car without any problems???

___ next level questions_____

Anyone with any ideas of the causes for a 'big bore' engine to RUN HOT . there is no thermostat connected to the engine and after about an hour of running it starts heading into the red zone.

-for direct contact: Rfranklin@price-entities.com -during the day (pacific time), Riccif@cts.com -at night.

I would really really appreciate anyones help/response. I'm always greatful to this board and point eveyone I know in its direction. My current 914 was purchase after many hours of discussion on this board and it is a gem. The ENGINE was damaged due to mandatory driving on the face of the MOON in order to get to work for nearly 3 months (streets on my way to work -were pothole infested- caused serious damage to exhaust/engine -though again, according to what I have learned I simply have an 'intake valve -bent/broken' issue).

[tat2dphreak]

yes any type 4 engine is a "drop in" see here:

Type 4 secrets revealed you can even drop a VW 411/412 or BUS engine in...minor modifcations to the engine though(dipstick location) on some of them

Big Bores run hotter: usually because of a couple of things... on the 1.7, they may have used thin walled cylinders to fit the 1.7 heads...

also, they may not have adjusted the A/F mixture, cuasing the engine to now run lean...

the compression ratio could be much higher or much lower that it should be (7.5 -9.25 is a normal range)

is the oil pressure ok? is the engine tin in good shape? (important questions)

bottom line: if the big bore was done correctly, it wouldn't run too hot.

[Rusty]

Welcome to the BBS!

1. Yes, you can fit any of the above engines into the car. Make sure you get the entire injection system (including ECU), if you don't have carbs.

2. You're in California. Finding a replacement engine should be easy out your way. There are folks parting out cars all the time. Check the classifieds here and over at Pelican.

3. R&R of an engine is something you can do yourself, if you have a garage or place to work.

hope this helps.

-Rusty (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smoke.gif)

[tat2dphreak]

Damn, I didn't even snap on that... there are people GIVING away engines out there(the frrebie may not run though)!!

a rebuild is not a huge undertaking though... much cheaper than a shop... replacement engines are easier to find though

[Boldylocks]

As I stated before, this BBS is WAYYYy to full of incredible 914 folks. My spirits have been lifted for sure.

Regarding the Big Bore== I understand. I actually had a 2.0 liter (it was killed by an Escort) and gave the running engine away (for 300.00). The engine ran hot -because it ran lean by choice- however the 'hottness' was only noticed on long trips into the desert. For the most part, I'm driving near the coast here and the air is very cool -and I avoid traffic jams -my motto -pull off, get a beer, meet some people, let the traffic roll on BY.

Good to know I shouldnt have a 'drop any 4' into the car problem.
What about a 6???? - I guess my concerns are the tranny. I'm not in the mood right now to up the whole transmission system and if any 4 can be put in, perhaps I should stay away from a 6 (who really wants to go faster -LOL-)

AGAIN --914Club BBS is HARVARD for 914 fanatics!!!

[tat2dphreak]

a 6, I am told isn't hard to do... but there is a lot more to it than putting in another TIV...

was it a stock 2.0? if so, it shouldn't have ran hot...why run it lean though?


BTW, next time you need to get rid of a 914 engine that runs, remember us folks in TIV starved TX! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

welcome aboard BTW... be sure and post pics of your bebe!

[Boldylocks]

Pics of the new and old machine will be posted shortly. Not too proud of the 2.0 liter- I never managed to get it painted, though it ran like a horse for over 3 years with one big problem -LOL- trigger points needed replacing-.
I ran the car lean for no particular reason, interestingly, I ran the car under a variety of bizzare conditions and was simply lucky -the engine was charmed I'm sure-.

I'm leaning towards any 4 I can find, most 6 engines out there need additional -serious- work and that is what I'm trying to avoid. The car is a daily runner -taking me less than 10 miles to and from work. So, a 'good' 4 engine is all I need while I save up to increase the inner need for bigger and better -speed-.

The new guy - the car in need of a new heart- Is red with a strange 'mullet like' fin on the trunk -not its best feature. Its lowered -by the previous owner- and has a sunroof in the targa top -neat feature for guys with girls who pray to their hair-.

I tend to learn a lot from this group: 1) I'm not a mechanic, and dont know if I ever will be. 2) I'm not crazy, the 914 is a lovable, original, son-of-a-german, and 3)a dying breed.

I'm leaning towards two engines out there right now: both are carburated -which will be new -I'm used to the fuel injected models, and one has been big bore kitted- the owner said it 'runs hot -near red zone hot- after an hour -which doesnt sound disheartening to me -sounds like some tweaking is needed.

I'm looking forward to any other ideas the group may have regarding the whole heat issue. In otherwords -give me the worse case scenario, I can take it, dont forget, I had a green-machine, 2.0 liter baby that was MURDERED by an Ford Escort, and now I have a little 1.7 Liter in the hospital in need of a new heart.

By the way, the 1.7 liter engine will be ready for the hobbyist out there once I find a running 4 to replace it. I can let you speak with my mechanic to learn about any problems etc.

[tat2dphreak]

if the 1.7 just needs head work, the work isn't much at all... infact, see a post I made earlier today... some cat has 2.0L heads on theSAMBA.com

if the 2.0 is running hot after 1 hour, it could be an incorrect compression ratio... what size big bore is it? bigger than 96mm is usally bad...


also look at pelican's 911 classifieds if you want a 6... there are several engines on there that were rebuilt recently...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/forumdispla...p?s=&forumid=17

if you are in Ca, depending on the year, you may have to stay fuel injected for smog reasons... I just learned that recently.

[Boldylocks]

I dont have to worry about smog -my car is 73, smog begins with the 75 cars -or at least 74 -meaning I dont have to have someone under my car's hood sniffing around unless its smoking, or driving too fast (which will have NOTHING to do with me, my foot, or my driving -damn cars always driving too fast!!)

You mention that anything over 96 is bad -hmmm, I'm lost again -any good links for pros and cons of boring the valves in the first place??? I'm being told I'm looking at a 103mm bored out 1.8 liter engine. Again, the heat factor worries me, but the thing doesnt have head gaskets, a thermostat, and from reading here, it could be running lean etc. My fear is that there could be a reason that hasnt been mentioned that causes it to run HOT that isnt a 'tweak' fix (compression is fixable-right?, running lean is really fixable, the oil pressure is fixable -all within 'reason'. What about a serious issue with the whole bore process that could be suicidal -a real problem?

I'm all over Pelican's site right now and have been emailing them for the past few days -THANKS for reminding me to log on and check how things are going. trying to find an engine and avoid being fired can be a nightmare -_LOL -Alas what we do for our twintrunks!

I'll look into the heads as well. If purchasing new heads (the engine that needs work is a 1.7L) -or 'repaired' heads could help with my problem then I need to consider that as an option as well. -remember- I've been told I have an intake valve problem -something is bent- and we are looking at a machine shop type issue. -I'm getting close the a rebuild effort from the mechanic (4-6K) -because there is NO way I could do this at home-or on my own. -I'm a brake, spark plug, add oil, type - NOT an engine drop, open the engine, see the inside of an engine type -thats like a horror movie.

Again, all comments are ROCKIN, I'm going to get past this prob.

remember: 103mm bore-- bigger than 96mm -this is bad why???

[tat2dphreak]

bad for a couple of reasons... usually the cylinders are thin, the head AND case need PROPER machining for them... the "nickies" by LN engineering are the only good ones I know about and they are $$$$$$$ plus, unless it has 44 dellortros or 48 webers, it's probably running WAY lean.


Jake can give probably 100 other reasons, but on his site he says he rarely usues over 100mm unless they are Nickies.

I think a lot of it is increased compression is WAY too hard on our heads, esp once you flycut to let 103mm pistons in...

ShopTalkforums is a great resource for TIV engine help...

as far as being intimidated... I was like you too... as recently as 3 months ago! but I recently dropped my 1.7 and swapped the heads on it... no sweat! it really isn't a HUGE undertaking, it just seems like it! going deeper(read splitting the case) is the big undertaking, but just heads, is cake.

[Boldylocks]

Brass Tacks Time for sure: here is a quote from the guy who has the big bore 103mm engine: "the motor does not have a thermostat. However, the flap on the 3/4 cylinder side is wired in the open position, so air is hitting the oil cooler. There is no flap on the 1/2 side. The oil seems to be mostly from the 1/2 side. Push rod tube seals, maybe, or could be poor seat of cylinder to head or case since there are no gaskets. I just don't know."

He also says "the ingine is a 1.8 liter case that has been machined to accomodate a 103mm big bore kit(103mm cylinders and pistons). 2.0 liter heads also machined. Heads were recently rebuilt and #3 valve replaced. The bad news is that it runs very hot and leaks a lot of oil! It is also loud and has poor gas milage. Comes with Weber carb setup. Carbs are made in Spain, model 40 IDF 70 M7. Carbs were recently rebuilt. Slightly larger than stock Elgin cam (266 duration 108 lobe ceenters, standard valve clearence)."

SO, here is the story, I'm very intersested in this engine because, so far, its the only 'running' engine I have come accross. My biggest problem is the problems that could lead to this heat issue. Running lean doesnt seem to be the biggest of problems. As I mention, I'm only taking the car for a stroll to work in the mornings and evenings home -less than 20 miles a day - which gives me time to work on 'lean' -BUT..
If there are deeper more bizzare reasons for a HOT engine - then I've got to keep looking.

NOTE: Pelican's BBS -while a nice place to visit -had a listing for an engine that was posted in October 1999 - and it was still being contacted which meant it was 'high' on the list of current discussions. - I like the Bird, but give me 914club or rennlist anytime.

-so, again, to all 914s out there - am I getting into trouble with a car that already RUNS hot -or are these usually issues that can be repaired ??
the engine I am dropping has a legitamate PROB -it will not idle, it has a MAJOR intake problem that -as discussed above- will result in 'head' removal and other issues that mechanics love to charge small boat prices for. I'm not looking to finance my Mechy's boat.
I would prefer to give a 914 upgrader some cash for a 'lessor' yet fun all the same, 4-cyl.

Keep it coming, I'm downstream LEARNING.

[tat2dphreak]

Dude, I would look for a better prospect... if it's running hot and already needed head work, you will start needing a lot more work done soon... and if it was a dropped seat... RUN!

40IDF is too small for 103mm bores.
losing the thermostat isn't a big deal... just takes a little longer to get warm without it, which running too cool isn't your trouble anyway! only FI engines(or engines in COLD climates) really need it...

can it be fixed... YES! but you are probably going to have to do a real rebuild! if someone used 103mm pistons and didn't know what they were doing... leave the engine where it sits, don't buy someone elses headache. there are a lot of things that could be causing the overheat... it may be nothing, or may be VERY bad....either way, you need to tear the engine apart to find out.

[peridotian]

That "hot" motor also has major oil leaks.

[Mike D.]

I have a great running 1.7 that was just removed from a '73 that I did a 2.0 swap. I also have another 1.7 runner but not sure how good it runs. I also have others. If your interested send me a PM. I'll also be at the Ventura Swap on Sunday.
-Mike D.

[tat2dphreak]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) see! told you Ca. is the place to find engines!

bring your sloppy seconds down here?! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

[Boldylocks]

I think I have to agree with you. I'm going to look away from the leaky-hot-strange engine. Sounds like there are more problems than positives.

thanks for all the help for sure. I'm still drawn to the larger bore engine and wonder what would happen to the car with the correct carbs etc.

the fact is the thing runs for nearly an hour before getting HOT -to me, it just seems as if the problem is related to oil flow, or something that can be 'fixed' without super problems. Unless you are reading something in the guys comments that I cant see for lack of experience. -You surely have me concerned. What is interesting, is that my car, wasnt running hot, started making nasty noises, failed to idle, nearly failed to start, and has an intake problem that will require surgery. This 'heat' takes a while 5 minutes would worry me, 20 minutes would worry me, but near an hour before creeping into the red seems.....

I've tried to contact Mike D., perhaps the guy right up the highway from me does have an answer to my needs. Plus, I may get to head up and play in LA for a day before picking up the engine -nothing like checking out the new silicon on the market (wink) - keeps ya young! LOL.

Hopefully I'll hear from Mike soon, and will be able to get this little 914 back on the road.

[tat2dphreak]

I understand the draw... go here to see what TIVs can really do

http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/Home_Page.htm

[Boldylocks]

Newest information on the HOT engine: Again, I'm thinking I will follow the 'feelings' of the board and perhaps avoid this thing...
Comments from the HOT ENGINE OWNER---
"The heads were recently redone, so I know they are NOT warped. I had
a broken valve replaced. When I put the head back on I noticed that the top
of cylinder 3 was not perfectly level with the top of cylinder 4. Therefore,
the head would never properly seat on the cylinders. I had one machined to
match the other and the head seats good. I bring this up because it's
possible you've got the same problem on the other side. If the head is not
on there right, it's gonna sling oil and make it run real hot. That would be
the first thing I'd check. If you run it real hot for a long time, you run
the risk of busting another valve. If they glow red hot, sooner or later
they get brittle and break. Good luck!""

So??? I guess I'll say it one last and final time, does this sound like a money-pit, or a potential fun challenge. I'm far from afraid of 'paying' to have these cars worked on, I hate to spend the money, but 300-1000 dollars every other quarter isnt bad considering what people spend on NEW 'lack of imagination' cars. What HURTS is the 1500-4000 dollar jab in the stomach -which is what I'm looking at right now.

I guess I need to know how long 'someone' drove around with this HOT car???

I'm feeling like a sucker. Hopefully I'll find some better options. Must learn patience.

[tat2dphreak]

UHH.... if that head AIN't WARPED, I'll eat my hat! you shouldn't have to machine 1 to make it level....

that engine needs HELP! not fun sorta challenge help, BIG-guy-making-you-his-bitch kind of help!!! 500-1000 just to get the heads right(or less if you just buy some other heads) and that will probably need to be repeated 2+times per year!

buy one of those 1.7s... beat the hell out of it and then when you DO find a GOOD engine(and I'm sure it won't take that long in Ca.) buy that! maybe even build up an engine, take your time while you are driving the 1.7!

[Boldylocks]

ROFL - GREAT comments I'm laughing right now, cuz if you knew me you would understand that I tend to be pretty careful when I finally take out the wallet but I can get very caught up looking at big jugz on engines that just seem ready to make a lot of sound an speed.
Good call. I wasnt feeling very good about the engine, however it just seemed to be a monster I 'could know' instead of buying an engine that is running and may be just this side of a piece of crap?
Know what I mean??? -I was hoping the engine was a monster -but a monster I could deal with. Its starting to sound like Its just growing into a BIG ASS monster soon, and I dont need that.

Ill search for the 1.7 little monster for now. But I'm tellin you, its callin my name because it does run -which is one thing my engine does not do.