73 1.7 Electrical Problems Options

[Strykerguts]

So, here's the deal.

I have a 1973 1.7L which is sadly not running. Engine turns but will not start. I believe I have narrowed the problem down to one area, the coil and wire leading to the distributor. I have vortage registering on both sides of the coil, Terminal 15 showing more than 9 volts and Terminal 15 showing volts appropriately when tested. However, This is apparently where the electricity stops. I can't get any spark from the wire leading to the distributor. I have already tried replacing this wire, so that's not the problem. My Hanes book says (as best as I can understand) that the voltage reading on 1 and 15 means the coil is okay. Is this incorrect?

To sort out the questions:

1. If I am getting readings on both terminals, does this mean the coil is okay?

2. Is there a way to test whether or not there is electricity coming out of the wire leading to the distributor besides the spark test?

3. If the coil is okay, why in the name of zeus's beard am I not getting a spark when I hold the wire near the crank case?

Thanks


PS: If there is already a post answering these questions just shoot me the link. I don't have time to search for it right now. Studying for the Bar Exam. Also, this is my first time working on this car.

[BK911]

You can put a timing light on the wire. I prefer that method over pulling a plug.

[Strykerguts]

Tried the timing light, no response. Still have no elec. going through the wires. So, changed the ignition coil, thinking it was bad, but that didn't change anything. Still no spark. I believe this ($*E#$% car will start if I can get sparks flying again. Anyone have an idea of what the problem could be? Here's a description for those who missed it up top.

Engine turns. Fuel pump sounds like its running. I have no spark at the distributor. Voltage looks good at the coil. All other electrical components work. Anyone have any ideas on what the problem could be? HELP (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) I am at a loss.

[mihai914]

Did you try replacing the points inside the distributor? If you don't have a spare set around, you can try and clean the old ones fo now. You also have to set the gap when reinstalling and check the dwell angle and set the timing (all of these if the car starts of course).

The points is the mechanical device that will permit to the coil to energize and give you a nice spark for each cylinder.

You can find points at you local FLAPS (Autozone, Advance auto parts...)

Read the Haynes at page 62-63 points 1 and 2 and good luck for the BAR exam you'll need it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

This post has been edited by mihai914: Jul 8 2006, 07:49 PM

[Strykerguts]

Did you try replacing the points inside the distributor? If you don't have a spare set around, you can try and clean the old ones fo now. You also have to set the gap when reinstalling and check the dwell angle and set the timing (all of these if the car starts of course).

The points is the mechanical device that will permit to the coil to energize and give you a nice spark for each cylinder.

You can find points at you local FLAPS (Autozone, Advance auto parts...)

Read the Haynes at page 62-63 points 1 and 2 and good luck for the BAR exam you'll need it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

First off, much thanks for the well wishing on the exam. I need all the luck I can get right now. As for the car, I have not even been able to get the wire that goes from the coil to the distributor to make a spark. I would be happy at this point just to get that result. Then I can move on to the individual spark plug wires. Any thoughts on what could be causing the lack of spark at the coil to distributor wire? (keep in mind just installed new coil today). By the way, pics of the parts described are ALWAYS appreciated. Especially helpful for the 914 novices like yours truly.

[Dr Evil]

He actually already answered your question.
Allow me to ellaborate:

The points (pictures above) are a mechanical fixture inside the distributor, under the cap and the rotor. These points work in concert wiht the condensor (looks like a little beer can on the side of your distributor) to tell the coil when it should shoot out a spark.

If your points are not "gapped" correctly, this whole orchestra will be off and you will get no spark. Gonna have to read the manual pages recommended aboe for more info on the gap.

Ya dig?

[Dr Evil]

Oh ya, the wire going form your distributor to the coil IS the wire from your points/condensor package.

[Dr Evil]

A little searching turned up this site with a deacent tutorial about what we are all talking about.

Enjoy!

http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/htm/spark.htm

[So.Cal.914]

Well said Doc.

[Strykerguts]

Brilliant!!!! I will check out all the stuff y'all got back to me about and see what happens. I appreciate all the help. Thanks to all. I will also check that tutorial you posted and get back to you as soon as I have more issues to report... or more likely more questions about what I'm doing wrong. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Again, thanks all. The feedback is a great help.

[Dr Evil]

Keep the questions coming.


I feel for you on the test, I am studying right now as well for a final. Good luck!

[Strykerguts]

So, the saga continues. First off, have to say good luck to Dr. E on the test. Hope you ace it. And, thanks for the tutorial. Definite help.

Now, on to the No-Spark dilemma. I just got done replacing the points. When I removed the old one, I believe I discovered the true meaning of "pitting". I don't know if you are supposed to be able to see through the base of the non moving contact point, but mine has a hole through it where the new one did not. It also looked quite uneven. The contact point on the moving arm appears to have a good amount of build up on it as well. Anyway, points have been replaced. I reviewed my Haynes manual and believe I have the correct gap now. So, mission accomplished as to that.

Still, I have no spark. However, I read the tutorial Doc posted and tested the condenser by unplugging the green wire and with ignition on there was still current registering. Looks as though I have a condenser problem. Planning on replacing that part tomorrow.

So, after that long update, here are the new questions:

1. Do the original points on this car have a hole in the middle of the non-moving contact point, or did I have some SERIOUS pitting? Just curious.

2. If I do have a faulty condenser, as the test indicated, shouldn't I still see a little spark, or, would the condenser prohibit any spark from happening?

3. Finally, just a solicitation for any other suggestions anyone might have and if you think I'm going down the wrong road with the bad condenser belief, please let me know.

Alright, that's it. Thanks!

[Dr Evil]

Points and condensor are ususally bought together as they are relatively inexpensive.

A hole in the contact surface is most likely a sign of extreme neglect. Do you have a pic. I have got to see this. I would definetly expect the conductor to have crapped out as well.

Start with the small things.

Thanks for the well wishes...now back to gluconeogenesis (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

[Strykerguts]

Well, we have spark. Given, it is not a big one. Turns out I could have had spark before going to buy the new condenser because when I was reassembling the distributor I forgot to put the rotor back in before checking for spark (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif) (I am a genius). The points appear to have been the problem, as we now have spark.

Haynes describes the spark as a "nice fat spark" which mine does not appear to be. I think I will go ahead and install the new condenser (what the heck, I paid for it and it was cheap) and see if that gives me a bigger spark. If that doesn't get this thing started, I will be replacing the spark plugs.

As a background, here is the history of how I acquired this car. Helping a friend of a friend move out of his house, I noticed the 914 outside. He said he had timed the car by ear, and subsequently it has ceased to function. It had been resting outside his house for approximately 6 months. He told me during the course of the move if I towed it away (he was moving and had nowhere to store it) I could have it. Hey, sounded like a good enough deal to me. One call later to AAA, I had this car stored in my garage.

Now, the tale continues. The title was a huge headache, but I will skip the drama on that. Suffice to say it was great practice for my future law career. The part I have to divulge is that this car was obtained before law school, and sat throughout law school at my parent's house in Austin (covered, but still outside). I didn't have time to mess with it since I was in Houston and obviously quite occupied. The car has sat still for a total of about 4 years and has not run since I acquired it.

I know this gets off topic, but I want input on anything I should do before really trying to fire this car up. The gas is not an issue. Drained it today, and it looked relatively good considering the length of its tenancy in the car. However, any parts I should be particularly worried about due to its sitting without running for so long? It is still fuel injected (D-Jet) if that makes any difference.

Oh, and Doc, I will post a pic of the points I took off the car as soon as I get a chance.

Thanks

[swl]

On the gas issue. You can use your nose. Gas that has 'gone bad' smells kinda like varnish. Really noticable once you have smelled it.

without wanting to scare or discourage you here is a list of problem areas from my 73 1.7 that still isn't running - oh and keep in mind that I'm a newbee of sorts too - just passing on what these guys have taught me.

Injectors. They get fouled from bad gas and crap. There are great places that will recondition them for about $12 a pop. May be worth while. You can pull them out individually an watch them spray into a jar to get a reasonable idea of what shape they are in.

fuel filter. Obvious - if you don't know how long it has been in there you might want to replace it just to be safe.

Vacuum advance. make sure both the ports can still hold a vacuum. Just sucking on it was enough to confirm that mine was toast.

rubber lines. if they are original they can be a source of vacuum leaks. the ones that go into the air cleaner aren't important but anything to the throttle body or air plenum shouldnt leak.

Be very careful when removing electrical connections - the wires break easily.

Timing - obvious. Haynes will walk you through it. If he timed it by ear and it stopped working it is a pretty good bet he has messed it up.

Don't forget your valve adjustment. They have to be really bad to stop it from firing but they need to be right on when you start driving it.

Other than the valves and timing you don't really need to do any of the above. You could get lucky and have it fire right off. If it doesn't then do some searches or ask for help. The folks around here are fantastic.

Oh - one last thing. Before you crank it for real take the plugs out, turn off the fuel pump by pulling the relay, and crank it for a bit. That will get the oil distributed again.

[swl]

hmm. just reread your history post. 4 years with gas in it? I think I would drain it and put in new. That's a long time.

[Cap'n Krusty]

Replace all the fuel lines. Buy the hose from GPR, Pelican, or me. Approximately 14 ft. DO NOT use hose from your local auto parts store! Modern fuel is tough on hoses, as is time. Fire is the one really and truly scary thing about 914s, and a BUNCH of 'em have left us that way. The Cap'n

[Strykerguts]

What about the fuel injection system itself? Anyone know of any issues with it sitting for so long? Besides replacing the fuel lines and filter. On that note, Cap'n (or anyone who knows), how much would those lines cost approximately?

Oh, and here is a picture of the car for those who care to take a look at its current state.

[Strykerguts]

So, here are the pictures of the points I removed. Anyone know if the hole in the base of the points is normal? Is this record breaking pitting, or do some points look like this when you buy them?





Let me know what you think, folks.

[Dr Evil]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) Dunno if any came that way, but certainly none that I have seen.