OT: Salvage title laws in CA... seller did not disclose!, Do I have any recourse? Options

[bondo]

Hey guys, sorry I've been away so much... My 914 project is packed up for the move to SD, and it's been too depressing to read 914world regularly because I can't work on it.

Ok, here's the story: My wife bought a 1973 240Z. She likes them but wanted to try one out before seeking a "nice" one to fix up. It looks like she does, and is hooked on Z cars, so mission accomplished there. The other function of this purchase was as an investment. We found a "deal" on a running/driving 240z, and waited until the seller had rent due and had to drop the price, then we snapped it up. I checked it out when we bought it and determined that with some minor work, it could be worth at least twice what we paid. The idea would be to sell it when we sold our house, so we wouldn't have to move it to SD, and it could also cover some moving expenses.

Here's where it gets "interesting"... The seller only had a photocopy of the title the previous owner had given him, sale dated in November, so he hasn't had it very long. He said he gave the original title from the previous owner to DMV, but never got a new one from DMV. He made out a bill of sale to us, but didn't have the bill of sale from the previous owner to him. He claimed he had left it at his parent's house, 100 miles away, and would mail it to us in a week, next time he was there.

So we go to AAA to at least get the payment made within 30 days to avoid penalties. They tell us IT HAS A SALVAGE TITLE! They also say they need the original of the title we only have a photocopy of, and that it needs to be recertified at DMV.

Looking at the law, the seller is REQUIRED to disclose if a vehicle has a salvage title. Not only did he not disclose it, but I think he deliberately tried to hide it by "not having" the new title. He also told us that the minor damage to the drivers door and rear fender happened during the previous ownership, but the photocopied title dated in November has no salvage mark on it. So either he lied about that, or he doctored the title before photocopying it.

I now have a lot of reasons to believe the seller can not be trusted:

1. He hasn't mailed us the previous bill of sale as promised.

2. He didn't disclose the salvage title, and he must have known about it. He even mentioned that he "just had to fix the brakes and lights". I have since found out that part of the re-certification process is a brake and light inspection... Coincidence? I don't think so!

3. He said a bunch of things on the car worked, when in fact they don't. I didn't have time to check them all as we were buying the car on my lunch break.

4. He is clearly an idiot. His version of small talk is talking about cars he's rolled.

5. He isn't returning my emails.

So what recourse do we have? He definitely has broken at least one law. We may not ever be able to register it, as I can't get any more paperwork out of the deadbeat. Does anyone enforce the disclosure laws? How can we prove he didn't disclose the salvage title if he claims he did? Could I take him to small claims court over this? He doesn't seem very bright so I don't think it would be too hard to outsmart him, but I of course want to keep it legal. Some investment this turned out to be.

The good news is that it runs and drives great after I re-arranged the spark plug wires to the correct firing order. (more evidence he's not too bright!)

Thanks to all who can lend some advice! Let me know if any of this needs clarification, I know it's a long and convoluted post. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Rand]

The seller only had a photocopy of the title the previous owner had given him

That alone would have scared me off. Sorry to hear this Brando. Good luck.

[KaptKaos]

Depends on if you think you can get blood from a stone. If the guy has no money or assets, you might win, but never collect.

I am not an attorney and this should not be considered legal advice. It is based upon my experiences alone. Disclaimer. In other words, don't take what I write as gospel.

Does the bill of sale say "as-is" anywhere on it? If so, you may be screwed.

How much was the car? If it is less than $5k, then you can take him to small claims court. At this point it will be a he-said, she-said affair. Small claims is like binding arbitration, so you might get all, you might get half; depends on the judge. When you sue, you get to call witnesses and subpoena. You might need to do that too.

1st step: Send him a letter, certified, demanding your money back in return for the car. Explain your position and your findings.

2. If he ignores it, then you need to file your claim in the town where the sale took place. So you may have to travel a bit. If you don't do it that way, he can move dismiss on jurisdiction.

3. Get your witnesses and paperwork in order before you go to court. Make copies as he will have a right to examine them.

As for outsmarting him, I think you both were playing games on the deal and that's part of the problem. I hope you can work it out.

[bondo]

The seller only had a photocopy of the title the previous owner had given him

That alone would have scared me off. Sorry to hear this Brando. Good luck.

That would have scared me off too had I not bought at least 4 cars without titles, never having a problem. It also seemed quite plausible that DMV might not have gotten the new one to him yet, as he had recently bought the car. I guess in this case experience was a bad thing.

Oh, and it's bondo, like the body filler, not Brando like the Marlon. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Rand]

LOL. Sorry Royce / bondo.

[sj914]

Was the photocopied title in the guys name? Or was it in the previous owners name?

If the title still officially is in the previous owners name, you can probably try to contact the person and work out the paper work directly through them and cut out the guy you bought it from.

[bondo]

Clarification: We have already spent money and time on the car, and even with a salvage title it's possible for us to make a profit. We do not wish to return the car for a refund, as we would be out of money and time.

Priority #1: Get the car registered in our names, if possible.

Priority #2: Get something like half the $ back because it was mis-represented. We would not have bought it for that price had he lawfully disclosed.

Priority #3: Turn the guy in for fraud/whatever.

[bondo]

Was the photocopied title in the guys name? Or was it in the previous owners name?

If the title still officially is in the previous owners name, you can probably try to contact the person and work out the paper work directly through them and cut out the guy you bought it from.

Ooh, interesting idea! I'll look into that, thanks! (The photocopied title is in the name of the guy he bought it from)

[Brando]

Bondo... we need something more than that to differentiate us... Because they'll just call you Marlon Bondo...

Sorry to hear about the experience with the 240Z. I had a similar occurrence on attempting to register my 944 before selling it (that car has been a bane to my life since ownership, but damn was it fun to drive and own). Bought from dealership, supplied almost no paperwork. 6 month long paperwork shuffling process through the DMV allowed me to register it finally.

The seller seems to me like a real scumbag. File a complaint with the DMV. Make sure they get his full name and address. AFAIK the DMVs of all states are networked. Basically this is sales fraud. You can go to small claims for the value of what you paid (if you want to give it back) or other forms of recourse, but I think you'd have to give the vehicle back. best method if you want to keep it, is call the DMV, wait the 20 minutes on the phone and ask for every option in your scenario. They're experienced and can help you more than we can.

The seller only had a photocopy of the title the previous owner had given him

That alone would have scared me off. Sorry to hear this Brando. Good luck.

That would have scared me off too had I not bought at least 4 cars without titles, never having a problem. It also seemed quite plausible that DMV might not have gotten the new one to him yet, as he had recently bought the car. I guess in this case experience was a bad thing.

Oh, and it's bondo, like the body filler, not Brando like the Marlon. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[ConeDodger]

Royce,
There are only two requirements to re-title a salvaged car. One is a CHP inspection. In this the CHP looks over the car to make certain the car wasn't rebuilt with stolen parts. The second you have already mentioned. The Brake and Light inspection costs about $80+ dollars and they look to see that the brakes, E-brakes, and all lights function. This has to be done at a CA Brake and Light Certification Station. These can be hard to find as the State is a pain to deal with and lots of them have just let the cert go.

As you can see by my signature, I have a Z. In fact in a past life I had a very popular website that outlined many modifications to the cars called PlanetZ.
I have lots of parts laying around so if you need something let me know. I may have one...

I would not bother with sueing. I bet the guy has no assets to recover. Go direct to DMV for advice on how to get it titled. Salvage is no big deal. If an insurance company writes a check on an old car like that it ends up with a salvage title. All it takes is spilling a cup of coffee on the paint. I assume rust is not too bad? CHP probably has jurisdiction on the lies you were told.

Rob

[SLITS]

My experience with Salvage Titles is that they either come from:

1.) A tow yard

2.) A salvage yard

Salvage titles can be issued on a car that has nothing really wrong with it. It can be just the way the papers were processed by 1 or 2 above.

Easiest way to get title is file a lien sale. 31 days from the day you file you hold a "sale". Car is now yours unless it's stolen (and most of us know that story). Oh, BTW, during this process notices are mailed to all previous owners asking if they have any interest in the vehicle. If none contest, it's no problem. The list costs you $10 (or used to) from the DMV and you are REQUIRED to send the letters by Certified Mail as I remember. There are companies that will process the lien sale papers for you. Not hard stuff ... you can pick up the packet from any DMV.

[alpha434]

Aren't there smog regs in CA?

In CO, passing emissions is the sole liability of the seller. If the car doesn't pass, it doesn't matter if the Bill said "as is." It's now a fraudulent sale if the seller told you it runs. Additionally, the seller is obligated in CO to pay for any code testing that you perform on the vehicle. That includes a safety cert, (rarely needed in CO,) and all emissions testing.

CO also has a "Lemon law" that is supposed to protect buyers from predatory sales. 30 days to enact it after the bill of sale. There is a legal fast track for recouping costs of the sale, and additionally expenses for fuching around with the car.

[KaptKaos]

Small claims is likely all money back and return the car or the judge might make the guy pay you back some arbitrary amount. However, its a roll of the dice. You don't get to keep the car and most of the money. It usually doesn't work that way.

If you still like the car, get it registered and use it as a lesson.

Rob's right, the guy likely has no $$ to collect.

[Jeffs9146]

Aren't there smog regs in CA?

1973 does not need smog!

[akellym]

This might help you out...

http://www.theautoappraiser.com/salvage_title.htm

[keske968]

Well I am in law school but I cannto give legal advice but I can say what I think you should go after. I think that the certified letter is a good start. Small claims court may not be a bad idea either but then you run the risk of scumbag not having anything to collect on.

In contract law there is no such thing as punitive damages. Basically the best you could hope for would be either returning the car for the amount you paid or the difference in value of the car if it had a salvage title v. a clean title.

I would try talking to him first (you have done this already but keep trying). Next, if he does not see the err of his ways I would just file in small claims court.


Once again this is NOT legal advice. Just suggestions.

Good Luck

[ConeDodger]

Well I am in law school but I cannto give legal advice but I can say what I think you should go after. I think that the certified letter is a good start. Small claims court may not be a bad idea either but then you run the risk of scumbag not having anything to collect on.

In contract law there is no such thing as punitive damages. Basically the best you could hope for would be either returning the car for the amount you paid or the difference in value of the car if it had a salvage title v. a clean title.

I would try talking to him first (you have done this already but keep trying). Next, if he does not see the err of his ways I would just file in small claims court.


Once again this is NOT legal advice. Just suggestions.

Good Luck

Well, you are certainly going to be a good lawyer. Because that NOT legal advice sure sounded like legal advice! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Cap'n Krusty]

Hi, Royce. You probably won't like what I'm about to say, but it's screaming to be heard.

You said: "The other function of this purchase was as an investment. Repeat after me "Stocks, bonds, savings accounts, precious metals and stones, and sometimes property are investments. Cars are transportation." Remember this.

You said: "He is clearly an idiot." HE'S an idiot? YOU saw a "deal", you pounced on him when you perceived him to be at a most vulnerable point, and you took a photocopy of the title, no bill of sale, and you don't know where he is. Think about who's the idiot. You saw a deal, someone you could take advantage of, he saw a sucker. While you were busy taking him for a ride, he was doing the same to you, only he was better at it. "You can't cheat an honest man." Remember this.

No offense meant, but you got a taste of reality, and you don't like it. I sympathize with you, but you are your own victim. BTW, as is probably true of most of us, I've been burned on car deals, too. The Cap'n

[Jeffs9146]

as is probably true of most of us, I've been burned on car deals, too

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

I bought a 914 from a guy who had a copy of a Texas title and a CA registration in his name but no CA title! He said he would sign the paperwork and help me through getting the title so when I received the duplicate title it said "Non-Transferable" all over the front. When I went to the place that I had purchased the car it was boarded up and gone. After over a year of trying to get the Title I just changed the address and continued to pay the fees in his name. Then the car got wrecked and I couldn't sell it! So I parted it out and cut it into small chunks to sell for scrap!

PS: I was only 19 so I learned my lesson!!

Buyer Beware!!

[bondo]

Hi, Royce. You probably won't like what I'm about to say, but it's screaming to be heard.

You said: "The other function of this purchase was as an investment. Repeat after me "Stocks, bonds, savings accounts, precious metals and stones, and sometimes property are investments. Cars are transportation." Remember this.

You said: "He is clearly an idiot." HE'S an idiot? YOU saw a "deal", you pounced on him when you perceived him to be at a most vulnerable point, and you took a photocopy of the title, no bill of sale, and you don't know where he is. Think about who's the idiot. You saw a deal, someone you could take advantage of, he saw a sucker. While you were busy taking him for a ride, he was doing the same to you, only he was better at it. "You can't cheat an honest man." Remember this.

No offense meant, but you got a taste of reality, and you don't like it. I sympathize with you, but you are your own victim. BTW, as is probably true of most of us, I've been burned on car deals, too. The Cap'n

You're entitled to your opinion on what is an investment, but I wholeheartedly disagree. Anything that can be sold for more than it's purchase price is an investment to me. People pull illegal crap like this in everything you call an investment, it's just more prosecutable because there's more money involved. Since I don't have more money to involve, I have to stick to cars, for now. (I plan to get into real estate investment in the not too distant future)

I know you mean no offense, but I do take offense to the idea that I was trying to take advantage of the schmuck. HE posted the craigslist ad. I sent an email asking some questions, which he answered. I ended up deciding that it wasn't quite a good enough deal, and I didn't quite have enough $. Weeks later HE emails ME, offering it for 33% less. I looked at it and decided it was a good enough deal. Not only did I do everything on the up and up, completely honest and breaking no laws, I even paid him his revised asking price instead of negotiating it down further, because I considered it to be a fair price.

He on the other hand was dishonest and did break the law. My suspicion is that he got a check from the insurance company for something like twice what I paid for it, then sold the car as a non-salvage to try and milk as much as he could from it. He may have gotten a better deal, but it's not because he's "better" at anything, but because he was willing to be dishonest and break the law.

I admit I made a mistake. The mistake was not any of the details, but the more general mistake of trusting a stranger. Once bitten twice shy I guess.