 Thinking of a V8---PART II, Ok, so whats the best route if....... |
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| ninefourteener |
 Feb 4 2004, 03:26 PM
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#1
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Perfectly Normal Guy :)  Group: Members Posts: 1,216 Joined: 3-June 03 From: St. Louis, MO Member No.: 779  |
I was reading the post on the "Thinking of a V8" topic.... and although the thought sounds great, I can't justify spending that kind of cash on all the upgrades required.
Nor can I justify discarding a brand new (under 10K miles) on my 2.0, with over $5k in reciepts on the buildup. I feel confident that my engine runs well into the 110-120hp range HOWEVER.... the thought of upgrading to a MUCH more powerful motor is a cool idea. When I say "much", I mean up above the 225hp range. So.. are there options? Can I buy a 2.0 with that kind of power? If so, where? Is there another engine that will bolt right in without major modifications? Forgive my ignorance.... but before teeners, I did 70's GM stuff..... if you want a bigger engine, you buy one, bolt it in, and you're done. Supercharger? Bolt it on...... Nitrous?? Bolt it on. So..... help me out here..... Lets assume I wanna go a lot faster, but I'm not looking to add radiators, modify transmissions, driveshafts, suspension, etc. What does a guy do?? I'm curious to hear some responses on this. |
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Replies(1 - 19)
| seanery |
Feb 4 2004, 03:35 PM
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#2
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waiting to rebuild whitey! Group: Retired Admin Posts: 15,854 Joined: 7-January 03 From: Indy Member No.: 100 Region Association: None |
220 hp? bolt in?
1. -6 2. big jake-type motor |
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| RocknRollFrenzy |
Feb 4 2004, 03:36 PM
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 94 Joined: 3-November 03 From: Santa Cruz, CA Member No.: 1,305 |
seems to me that if you don't want to add a radiator, then your best option would be a bigger, badder porsche engine. and probably one with 6 cylinders. can't say that i would advise beefing up power without doing some suspension and brake improvements though.
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| tat2dphreak |
Feb 4 2004, 03:38 PM
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#4
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stoya, stoya, stoya Group: Benefactors Posts: 8,797 Joined: 6-June 03 From: Wylie, TX Member No.: 792 Region Association: Southwest Region  |
Jake Raby is the guy you want... he can get 200+ from a type 4!!! he does amazing work... go to his website... and look at dyno sheets... I do that just to daydream (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif) DO it, and then take me for a ride so I can live vicariously!
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/boldblue.gif) RAT Page |
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| Joe Bob |
Feb 4 2004, 03:40 PM
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#5
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Retired admin, banned a few times Group: Members Posts: 17,427 Joined: 24-December 02 From: Boulder CO Member No.: 5 Region Association: None |
Buy someone else's project.....Malmz has "Sasquatch" for sale.
8K...a bargain. Needs paint and a gas gauge.....why screw around recreating the wheel? If it turns out you don't like it, you're not so far upside down in it that you're afraid to sell it. |
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| ArtechnikA |
Feb 4 2004, 03:47 PM
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#6
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rich herzog Group: Members Posts: 7,390 Joined: 4-April 03 From: Salted Roads, PA Member No.: 513 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(ninefourteener @ Feb 4 2004, 01:26 PM) ... I mean up above the 225hp range. Can I buy a 2.0 with that kind of power? ... before teeners, I did 70's GM stuff..... Bolt it on. ...assume I wanna go a lot faster, but I'm not looking to add radiators, modify transmissions, driveshafts, suspension, etc. you're not going to get 115 HP/liter normally aspirated - certainly not for long. Porsche's 906 engine was a 2,0 /6 and made about 210 very peaky HP at 9600 rpm. "power adders" are another matter. for how long do you want your 275 HP ? longer than a 10-sec dragstrip run ? you need to find a better way than stock air cooling to reject a shitload of heat... if you're determined to stay aircooled, 911 engines in the 3,2 range will get you there. if you don't mind adding a turbo, the 3,0 911 Turbo ('930') becomes a possibility. it's been a while since Porsche left gobs of power on the table on purpose... if you're determined to stay with a 4, you'll need displacement, lots of it. i gather this is possible nowadays but the $/HP ratio never seems to change that much... only you can decide what kind of life you need -- F1 engines have been cranking in excess of 200 HP/liter for a long time - but the crankshaft life of an F1 car is 6-8 hours. (Top Fuel/Funny Cars, of course, produce about 500 HP/cubic inch - on nitromethane, and have engine life measured in feet...) GM -did- leave HP on the table, which is another way of saying their stuff was a lot heavier than it had to be. ours isn't... and water gives you a lot more headroom to work with. transmissions and driveline components like clutches are pretty well sized for the power available in the car they came in. to a point, bigger is available. but it's not reasonable to want more power than the drive components are capable of and expect reliability. and if you really mean 'faster' and not 'quicker' - at some point you need to be concerned about brakes and the speed ratings on your tires ... |
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| Dave_Darling |
Feb 4 2004, 04:34 PM
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#7
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914 Idiot Group: Members Posts: 14,991 Joined: 9-January 03 From: Silicon Valley / Kailua-Kona Member No.: 121 Region Association: Northern California 
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Ninefourteener, I suggest you take a ride in a 914 with a (documented) 120 HP motor. You will find it far more entertaining than you thought possible.
If you get a ride in a well-done 225 HP 914, you will shit yourself. That gets right into "stupid fast" territory. A 275+ HP 914? No words to describe it. "OH .... MY ... GOD!" was all I could manage. You need a whole lot less power to push a 914 than you need in a 60s-70s muscle car. (And don't forget that up until the early 70s, American motors were listed with "SAE Gross" power ratings--free intake and exhaust, no accessories/alternators/pumps/pretty much anything that used power. The listed ratings were rather optimistic...) --DD |
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| ninefourteener |
Feb 4 2004, 04:38 PM
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#8
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Perfectly Normal Guy :) Group: Members Posts: 1,216 Joined: 3-June 03 From: St. Louis, MO Member No.: 779 |
Don't get me wrong, I'm VERY happy with my car... which eliminates the option of just buying someone else's project. My car was completely restored, from the ground up, less than 10,000 miles ago. I put 4000 miles on it last summer... my repairs?? A battery.. thats it.
Not to mention, my car is, and has always been, 100% rust free, jack points, floorboards, underside, both truinks, battery tray... all 100% rust free and original. The car has been practically sitting in a garage since new. Why would I get rid of it? No way.. never. This was primarily for shits and giggles.. my next project is a big brake / 5 lug / 17 inch wheel conversion.. not an engine upgrade. BUT..... I plan on keeping this teener till the day I die.. so you never know what the future holds. I'm interested in this "jake" character. what is his website? I don't think it was left on this post. How much cash are we talking to bolt in 200+ HP with no other mods?? Matt (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) |
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| tat2dphreak |
Feb 4 2004, 04:40 PM
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#9
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stoya, stoya, stoya Group: Benefactors Posts: 8,797 Joined: 6-June 03 From: Wylie, TX Member No.: 792 Region Association: Southwest Region |
QUOTE(Dave_Darling @ Feb 4 2004, 05:34 PM) If you get a ride in a well-done 225 HP 914, you will shit yourself. That gets right into "stupid fast" territory. A 275+ HP 914? No words to describe it. "OH .... MY ... GOD!" was all I could manage. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) thanks Dave I needed a good laugh... I find it funny because I'm sure it's 100% TRUE... |
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| tat2dphreak |
Feb 4 2004, 04:44 PM
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#10
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stoya, stoya, stoya Group: Benefactors Posts: 8,797 Joined: 6-June 03 From: Wylie, TX Member No.: 792 Region Association: Southwest Region |
QUOTE(ninefourteener @ Feb 4 2004, 05:38 PM) I'm interested in this "jake" character. what is his website? I don't think it was left on this post. How much cash are we talking to bolt in 200+ HP with no other mods?? Matt (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) Matt, I think I heard him say on the board once before that approx. 7-8k for him to build a motor.... best deal in the business if you ask me... but I don't know if that's for a full-on 200+hp engine or a more standard build... 150-175ish hp... I think the KIT is about 5k... another great deal, but you don't get his dyno time... I attached the link to his website in my previous post Jake's WebPage |
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| ninefourteener |
Feb 4 2004, 04:45 PM
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Perfectly Normal Guy :) Group: Members Posts: 1,216 Joined: 3-June 03 From: St. Louis, MO Member No.: 779 |
QUOTE(Dave_Darling @ Feb 4 2004, 02:34 PM) Ninefourteener, I suggest you take a ride in a 914 with a (documented) 120 HP motor. You will find it far more entertaining than you thought possible. If you get a ride in a well-done 225 HP 914, you will shit yourself. That gets right into "stupid fast" territory. LOL.. I hear ya..... trust me.. I'm used to the power though... and I do feel pretty confident that my engine is around the 110-120 hp range. My 2002 Acura RSX is rated at 160hp, and my teener is considerably faster. My last "Project" before I got into teeners was an 81 Elcamino. I bought a highly modified 396BB, dynoed at just over 500hp... and a 300HP NOS system. Plus.. a set of 5:13 gears in the 12-bolt If I dropped the clutch at about 4500 RPM... it would take the floormats and throw them into the front seats (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Too bad it's not so easy with a teener huh? LOL I'm not looking to drag the teener, nor am I looking to run nitro-methane on a regular basis--LOL Maybe just give the teener a nice kick in the ass.. you know?? Thanks (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) |
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| ninefourteener |
Feb 4 2004, 04:56 PM
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#12
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Perfectly Normal Guy :) Group: Members Posts: 1,216 Joined: 3-June 03 From: St. Louis, MO Member No.: 779 |
QUOTE(tat2dphreak @ Feb 4 2004, 02:44 PM) I think I heard him say on the board once before that approx. 7-8k for him to build a motor.... best deal in the business if you ask me... but I don't know if that's for a full-on 200+hp engine or a more standard build... 150-175ish hp... I think the KIT is about 5k... another great deal, but you don't get his dyno time... I attached the link to his website in my previous post Jake's WebPage Hmmm.... that 2533cc (is that right?) motor sounds pretty interesting. 200 hp, reliable, stays cool....... interesting (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Wonder what the cost is?? LOL Thanks for the site!! Matt |
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| Rgreen914 |
Feb 4 2004, 05:07 PM
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 285 Joined: 20-October 03 From: West Covina, Ca. Member No.: 1,266 |
That must have been one mighty stout 12-bolt, to withstand that kind of punishment from a big block with NOx and a 4-speed. I remember when my friend shelled a 12-bolt at Fremont Raceway running a NHRA legal D-Stock, '66 Bel Air with a 425/427; and we were only running 4:88's, 4-speed Muncie and 7" cheater slicks! That was one hell of a sticky strip...great night "air"!
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| tat2dphreak |
Feb 4 2004, 05:18 PM
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#14
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stoya, stoya, stoya Group: Benefactors Posts: 8,797 Joined: 6-June 03 From: Wylie, TX Member No.: 792 Region Association: Southwest Region |
QUOTE(ninefourteener @ Feb 4 2004, 05:56 PM) QUOTE(tat2dphreak @ Feb 4 2004, 02:44 PM) I think I heard him say on the board once before that approx. 7-8k for him to build a motor.... best deal in the business if you ask me... but I don't know if that's for a full-on 200+hp engine or a more standard build... 150-175ish hp... I think the KIT is about 5k... another great deal, but you don't get his dyno time... I attached the link to his website in my previous post Jake's WebPage Hmmm.... that 2533cc (is that right?) motor sounds pretty interesting. 200 hp, reliable, stays cool....... interesting (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Wonder what the cost is?? LOL Thanks for the site!! Matt in regards to cost... I think it's one of those things... if you HAVE TO ASK... it's probably too much (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) the 2316 is the one that I think sounds about perfect... esp. if you add some Nickies from LN Engineering (IMG:style_emoticons/default/w00t.gif) THAT sounds great to me! |
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| Dave_Darling |
Feb 4 2004, 06:14 PM
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#15
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914 Idiot Group: Members Posts: 14,991 Joined: 9-January 03 From: Silicon Valley / Kailua-Kona Member No.: 121 Region Association: Northern California
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I believe you're looking at the ~$8K range for the 150-HP 2270.
When you go much over that, I think things get a whole lot more complex and spendy. Sounds like you've got a good appreciation of power from your other cars--but a 914 is not another car. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Dyno your car and see what the numbers say--sometimes your "seat of the pants" can really get fooled by gearing/transitional behavior/etc. --DD |
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| Malmz |
Feb 4 2004, 06:41 PM
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#16
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CSOBOSC founding member Group: Benefactors Posts: 489 Joined: 22-April 03 From: So. Cal Member No.: 602 |
QUOTE(mikez @ Feb 4 2004, 01:40 PM) Buy someone else's project.....Malmz has "Sasquatch" for sale. 8K...a bargain. Needs paint and a gas gauge.....why screw around recreating the wheel? If it turns out you don't like it, you're not so far upside down in it that you're afraid to sell it. Looks like mine may be done if everything goes smooth. Dealing with wire transfers and pickup arrangements. I agree though, buy somebody else project... Or, turbo that -4! sm |
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| Tom Perso |
Feb 4 2004, 09:39 PM
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#17
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Crazy from the Cold... Group: Members Posts: 647 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Kalamazoo, MI Member No.: 1,003 |
QUOTE(Dave_Darling @ Feb 4 2004, 04:14 PM) I believe you're looking at the ~$8K range for the 150-HP 2270. When you go much over that, I think things get a whole lot more complex and spendy. Sounds like you've got a good appreciation of power from your other cars--but a 914 is not another car. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Dyno your car and see what the numbers say--sometimes your "seat of the pants" can really get fooled by gearing/transitional behavior/etc. --DD A 2270cc T4 (built correctly) will get your ass into trouble faster than you can imagine. Ask me how... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) LOL Seriously, I can't even fathom what the 914 is like with more than 200hp. What a ride! Tom |
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| Andyrew |
Feb 5 2004, 12:37 AM
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#18
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Spooling.... Please wait Group: Members Posts: 13,376 Joined: 20-January 03 From: Riverbank, Ca Member No.: 172 Region Association: Northern California
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Building the 944 turbo into the stupid fast territory.. putting in a new turbo and doing a "rebuild" should be good for 400+ engine hp and more tq than I can count. I reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaly want to drive/ride it...
I myself am getting tired of my little 2 liter that seems wimpy.. I wouldnt mind a few more hp.. but If I was to go into a new engine, it would be a hard choice because I would want to do what Fiid is doing.. 280hp 914? same weight as a stock 914?? beefed up everything?????? I mean I like that.. I have handling, braking, looks (ok, its not done..), interior (not done either..), I just need hp... These guys are right about the Raby engine if you are serious about wanting more hp. Its not cheep, but what about these cars are?? (ok, so its alot more than anything else you've spent on it.. but still..) Andrew |
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| rick 918-S |
Feb 5 2004, 12:24 PM
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#19
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Hey nice rack! -Celette Group: Members Posts: 20,493 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Now in Superior WI Member No.: 43 Region Association: Northstar Region 
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Some things will never change. How fast do you want to go? how much money you got to spend? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol2.gif)
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| JmuRiz |
Feb 5 2004, 01:03 PM
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#20
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 5,434 Joined: 30-December 02 From: NoVA Member No.: 50 Region Association: MidAtlantic Region
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If I remember correctly a real 200+ HP motor from Jake will run you around $10k if not more (depends on if he does custom cam grinds and setup or if you run one of his proven setups). You'll be talking nickies for your Cyls and he'll run some sweet forged pistons, wild heads, ceramic lifters, tangerine header and all kinds of trick parts that add up real quick. He also dyno tunes all the motors to get them running just right. Why else do you think his buildtime is so long? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
All that being said, I'll be looking to him for parts advise (at least!) when I'm ready to step up. |
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