How Much Stress does AX'ing Put on your 914, Will it break a DD? Options

[ericread]

I have a nice little stock 74 914 2.0 that is my daily driver. Like I have mentioned many times before, I put about 15,000 miles a year of daily driving on her.

I have never AX'ed my 914, and I was wondering, how much stress does AX'ing put on your 914. And where are the main points of stress? I would imagine the transmission and rear CV joints would feel a lot of stress, along with the front suspension? And maybe some major tire scuffing?

So if I decided to casually AX, how much downtime should I expect to encounter? I would love to occasionally enter an AX just to learn more about my car, but at what expense and level of downtime would I encounter?

And how much wear would I place on my transmission/CV joints/suspension/etc???

My thanks.

[SirAndy]

Will it break a DD?

Short answer: NO

Those are sports cars. They were meant to be driven. Otherwise, they'd have an Oldsmobile badge on the rear.

However, if there's anything on your car that is already in bad shape, you probably WILL break it during hard driving.

For example, if you have a CV that's already out of grease or the bolts are loose or your setscrew for the shift linkage is not tight or ...

AX tends to expose all those little things on your car that you neglected over the last few years ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Andy

[JoeSharp]

Eric, your tires will get the worst of it. If you don't try for TTOD and go cone cruzing like Linda does you should not have to do anything to the car. Come on over to El Tero on the 22nd of Feb. and check it out. Some of the 914 group will be there.

[ericread]

Will it break a DD?

Short answer: NO

Those are sports cars. They were meant to be driven. Otherwise, they'd have an Oldsmobile badge on the rear.

However, if there's anything on your car that is already in bad shape, you probably WILL break it during hard driving.

For example, if you have a CV that's already out of grease or the bolts are loose or your setscrew for the shift linkage is not tight or ...

AX tends to expose all those little things on your car that you neglected over the last few years ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Andy

Thanks Andy. But seriously, given my car is in fine shape today, if I AX should I expect to have to replace my CV's or need a transmission rebuild more frequently?

Eric (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bye1.gif)

Edit: Should I expect to have to set aside another few $Thousand per year to fix excessive wear caused form AX'ing?

[dw914er]

I tend to drive my 914 pretty hard. Granted years of it being my pretty much first car, auto cross, and a teenaged boy, its been probably driven harder in the last few years than the other 30+ years that my parents drove it.


I have had no significant issues besides my tires are now bald, and the basic maintenance of an old car


its a german sports car, they are built pretty well. Look at topgear, clarkson couldn't destroy his 911, even with dropping a grand piano on it, and crashing it repeatedly.

[grantsfo]

AX definitely puts more stress on the car. Tires are biggest wear item. You will occasionally break things if you AX on a regular basis. CV joints and wheel bearings are other parts that will likely wear and fail a little quicker. AX puts more stress on the motor but T4 is pretty tough and your just shorting life of a 150,000 plus mile motor a few thousand miles

But bigger danger is you may become addicted to AX and that is far more expensive as you will want to upgrade things to become competitive.

This post has been edited by grantsfo: Jan 26 2009, 02:52 PM

[messix]

i've got my '75 that i drive to and from the a/x and i'm not easy on it. haven't broke any thing just dont do dump the clutch launch [breaks the forward motor mounts! did that on tne street!] and drive it like ya stole it at the a/x!

you nut and bolt everything b4 and after though a couple of times just to be (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif) safe

[70Sixter]

Everything that wears will wear a little faster.

And if you get good you might start to flex that chassis after adding stiff springs, strut inserts, and torsion bars. Nothing chassis stiffeners cannot handle. And suspension braces. And a cage.

And as others have said, it can be addictive and eventually expensive.

Try it and see if you like it.

[r_towle]

Eric,
Get autox tires first off.
You will wear out a set of street tires in one season.

Tranny.
You will miss shift. Its called the money shift...you clip reverse on your way to second. Learn how to shift quickly, yet not miata quickly...
If you can do that, your tranny will be fine.
I do change tranny fluid once per year and check the magentic drain plug to see how much metal is on there.

For me, with three people driving my car...my syncros and sliders lasted 6 years with no issues...I just redid the tranny.
It still shifted fine, but after taking it apart and looking closely...it was due. The bearing in the intermediate plate will also die eventually, but none of this is a big deal, just par for the course.
If your tranny was new from the factory I would guess 10 years of autox would be about the limit...
It just puts more strain on the tranny.

CV joints...they hold up fine as long as they are ok now...its just like any car...you will hear them first...just replace them immediately because an autox will make them go from bad to dead in one day...un like normal easy driving.

Everything else is just normal wear and tear...brake pads get used up faster.

Then, as JP and many many others know all to well, you will get addicted and eventually upgrade everthing in the suspension, brakes, and finally cut off your roof and put in a full cage and a six cylinder motor and huge fender flares...and and and

Rich

[jhadler]

Your car will be fine. If you have maintained it well, and everything is in good working order (no leaking fluids, no bad CV's, no loose bearings) then you will find that the only alteration your car will have suffered after your first autox is the perma-grin on the loose nut behind the wheel.

True, if you've got maintenance items that you've neglected, they'll get your attention. But if you pay attention, the car will just love you for autoxing it.

I pretty much agree with what was said above, with one exception... Sorry Rich. And that is to stay on your regular tires for now. As a matter of fact, the only thing you should -change- before your first autox (or 2 or 3) is the pressure in your tires. Higher pressure in a street tire will help keep the sidewall from flexing over too much. If you plan to do more than a couple of autox events a year, then yes, a second set of tires (or at least a better set) are the better way to go. It's the one thing on a car that wears out pretty quickly when autoxing.

Really, if your car is in good shape, and you maintain it regularly, it'll be fine.

Here are the suggestions if you decide to increase your participation level...

1) Tuna can oil sump. Helps prevent oil starvation on long sweeping turns.
2) A good set of shocks and good alignment. This will TRANSFORM your car. You have no idea until you do. It will be like the heavens opened up and the celestial light of sportscardom was shining down on you... :-)

Now... Most folks will find this just right, and won't feel the need to go any further. They enjoy the occasional cone dodging afternoon, and that's all. However... Once you get bitten by the bug, yer sunk. But don't fear, there are lots of us to help you through this process. No, sadly there is no cure. But once you get it, you won't care...

And then slippery slope really starts... Wheels, tires, springs, bigger motors, lighter clutches, racing seats, harnesses, cages, fuel cells... All in the interest of shaving that extra second (or tenth of a second) off your times. Terms like "camber", "caster", "ackerman" and "scrub radius" will become second nature to you. People will ask you what you did last weekend and their eyes will glaze over after the first half hour of your excited ramblings of how spectacular your wake-up-before-dawn-outside-till-dark-stand-in-100-degree-heat-all-day day was. You'll begin to find that "normal" people just don't "get you" anymore. And you'll start seeking places to hang out with your "own kind". Race tracks are great places for that... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) And 914world is great for when you're not at the track...

Join us.... Join us.... Join us.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

-Josh2

[Richard Casto]

Not much different than what has already been said, but IMHO...

* Extra wear on tires. Tire take the hardest hit.
* Hard launches and/or aggressive shifting can expose driveline issues (broken motor mounts, bad CV joints, etc) that you may not have noticed earlier, or may not encounter in normal DD.

The above are not specific to 914, but cars in general.

In general, well maintained cars should have no problem. Where I think people have problems is with cars that are not maintained so you have many more "weak links" that might fail vs. a well maintained car. I think an argument can be made that cars that are Autocrossed or even tracked periodically may be in better mechanical shape than other cars of similar vintage. This is because the other cars don't get the attention that an Autocross or Track car might. When was the last time anyone talked to you about changing their brake fluid? Something you do frequently with an Autocross/Track car and maybe never on the DD (for example). Just be religious when it comes to maintenance. You don't have to abuse your car to have fun or turn quick times.

[PeeGreen 914]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/w00t.gif) Autocross will add so much stress on your car you will change everything out (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) .

Truth be told, there are some members up here that have been driving the very same 914 since they bought it new without ever breaking anything on the car. The car is in excelent condition. Mind you the own is now rather old and not driving balls to the wall. They are still agresive with the car though.

[jhadler]

Mind you the own is now rather old and not driving balls to the wall...

While I don't fall into the category of "owned it since new". I think the phrase "the older I get, the faster I was" can apply to a great many of us here... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

-Josh2

[Betty]

My 914 is my daily driver, I've owned it for going on 24 years now and autocrossed (hard core) for about 17 years. My car currently has 322,000 plus miles on the chassis (engine rebuilt a couple of times, transmission once) and he's as dead stock as we can possibly keep him. I drive on (and race on) street tires that are fairly sticky (I don't seem to burn through them toooo fast). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Like previous posters said, if you have any maintenance issues, they will show themself quickly... but that's a good thing as far as I'm concerned. No hard launches (it's an autocross... not a freakin drag race), don't miss your shifts and the car should be just fine. These little cars were BORN to be driven around corners at speed!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving-girl.gif)

I also agree with the one poster regarding staying on your street tires at first. Spend all your time and money improving YOUR skills first. Once you start to get more comfortable, then start spending time and money improving your car... if you even want to. Many people are perfectly happy racing in their stock class.

Once you want to start spending money on the car, get a set of racing belts. You wouldn't believe the difference being "one with the car" makes! Mine just hang down behind the seat and I use the stock seat belt on the road. After that I'd go for more expensive tires.

Another way to think of the whole "improve driving skills or improve the car first" argument is.... you take your driving skills with you from car to car - improvements to the car stay with that one car. As you autocross you will develop skills that could save your life on the street; whether it's driving your 914, the family people hauler, or the company truck. The quicker you develop your skills, the safer you and your passengers will be on the road.

[ClayPerrine]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) (What She Said)


With all the years of running AX, and maintaining both our 914s, I can say that I have only seen Two major failures. One was my fault, not a problem with the car. The other was failure of the input shaft of the transmission. But that may have been a hidden defect that only showed up when the car was launched from the line. It wasn't my car, so I don't know the details.


Get out there and DRIVE.... it is the most fun you can have in your 914 with your clothes on.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving-girl.gif)

[ericread]

Thanks for the really great information everybody! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

Now for the real decision... Sailing lessons or driver education and a helmet?


Hmmmmm... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

Eric

[PeeGreen 914]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) This is a decision (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif)

[J P Stein]

I have personally seen:

An RX3 Mazda and an early 911 Porsche (nearly identical A arm to the 914) break their front suspension, 2 crashes, and one broken wheel on a Lotus Elise at AX.... within the last 5 years.....which is why I have tried to build my car like a tank.

It is mucho fun, but not all peaches & cream.

[mightyohm]

You will break stuff you should have fixed anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[ConeDodger]

Autocross tends to expose things that would have eventually broken during DD anyway. Tires do wear more. Figure if you were going to replace tires every three or four years you will now do it yearly.

Competitive is defined by the individual. If you can be happy competing in your own class, there is little need to go crazy with modifications. Be careful that you don't find yourself modifying the car so much that finally, you don't like your own car! Don't get sucked into the culture some around here espouse that you are not competitive unless you can beat them. Bull! If they are on race tires with 100 more HP than you they had better go 2 seconds faster or it is they who aren't competitive!

Once you go to race tires, you stress the body so much that it isn't unusual to crack suspension consoles. That is the purpose of the GT stiffening kit.

There are lots of things that are nice to have but the only thing you have to have to have a good time in autocross are #1 seat time, #2 tires #3 belts that hold you in place. Pretty much everything else has a diminished rate of return and is only there for the semi-pro autocrosser who has to have that last .03 of a second. Of those three things above, the most important is seat time.

In my opinion, autocrossing is not as hard on a car as letting it sit for long periods of time like it is some kind of museum piece. Drive it. That is what it was made for.