something other than........... Options

[karmanbuilt]

This topic has probably been asked before, but.........can MFI mechanical fuel injection throttle bodies be setup on the 14, instead of running EFI?? Saw PMOs MFI for the 911, soooo.............

[ghuff]

This topic has probably been asked before, but.........can MFI mechanical fuel injection throttle bodies be setup on the 14, instead of running EFI?? Saw PMOs MFI for the 911, soooo.............

Why would you want to do that when it is worse than carbs and EFI? You get the worst of both worlds with MFI.

Buying velocity stacks and runners to stick CIS injectors in them is akin to turd polishing.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

The only win with CIS is the fuel atomization, CIS injectors are *great* at that and that is about it.

[Cap'n Krusty]

MFI and CIS are two different things in Porscheworld, and it appears you know little about either. Well setup MFI has HP advantages over carbs, CIS, and EFI. Right off the bat, there's more HP, you can use seriously rowdy cams, and the throttle response can be phenomenal. CIS makes the car pull like a tractor from minimal RPM to redline, but requires a relatively mild cam. EFI is cleaner, but also requires a mild cam and loses HP and torque. Carbs are dirty, inefficient, and offer poor fuel economy. Good throttle response, but they require serious tinkering to get as right as they can get, which isn't very. The Cap'n

[ghuff]

MFI and CIS are two different things in Porscheworld, and it appears you know little about either. Well setup MFI has HP advantages over carbs, CIS, and EFI. Right off the bat, there's more HP, you can use seriously rowdy cams, and the throttle response can be phenomenal. CIS makes the car pull like a tractor from minimal RPM to redline, but requires a relatively mild cam. EFI is cleaner, but also requires a mild cam and loses HP and torque. Carbs are dirty, inefficient, and offer poor fuel economy. Good throttle response, but they require serious tinkering to get as right as they can get, which isn't very. The Cap'n

That is great, it appears you do not understand what EFI can do.

Just how different is MFI than CIS? Both mechanical fuel injection, both garbage.


If you think "rowdy cams" are a problem, then please do explain how K20 powered honda cars run cams that are so huge and locked into vtec all the time on what is essentially a stock ECU with a map sensor? These cars run enough cam to where if I posted a video of my friends running you would think it had a giant vacuum leak. He has no problems cruising around and daily driving this car.

Because in the real world, EFI is EFI. "Rowdy cams" cause the same odd pulses in a honda or vw motor that they do in a porsche motor.

Do you think a porsche motor with cams is super special because it makes little to no vacuum?

How are you losing hp and torque with EFI? How are you metering your air and changing it for MFI?

This efi makes less power talk might have been true in the 70's or 80s but this is 2009 and cars do not come with flapper airboxes or some cruddy d-jet map sensor.


Carbs take tinkering and you get more tunability than you would out of CIS.

[ghuff]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHVCyj4GqPo



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nidxuvNoqk




EFi

[mightyohm]

This topic has probably been asked before, but.........can MFI mechanical fuel injection throttle bodies be setup on the 14, instead of running EFI?? Saw PMOs MFI for the 911, soooo.............

To answer the original question (sheesh!), yes, you can put MFI on a six motor in a 914. I've heard it is very difficult to adjust the MFI pump in the car due to access limitations around the fan housing in the 914, but if you drill a hole or two in the firewall it's probably doable. I've only seen one 914 with MFI before (Gwen's car).

[ejm]

That is great, it appears you do not understand what EFI can do.

I'm pretty sure John knows what EFI can do

If you think "rowdy cams" are a problem, then please do explain how K20 powered honda cars run cams that are so huge and locked into vtec all the time on what is essentially a stock ECU with a map sensor?.

That may make interesting discussion on a ricer board but most people here really don't care.

[mike_the_man]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) The Krusty one knows his stuff! And last time I checked, no one has a V-Tec in their engine bay around here.

To the original poster, I know next to nothing about MFI, other than it looks really cool. Are you talking about trying to put it on a 4, or installing a 6 with MFI? If you're thinking about doing it on a 4, it could make an interesting project, though not sure it would really be worth it in the long run.

Cheers,

[ghuff]

Yeah I guess the type IV and porsche motors are very special and they adhere to entirely different principles of physics. They have no vtec so obviously they cant be compared in any way what so ever with a plebeian japanese engine!



I am going to go remove the 1000cc injectors from my daily driver, and run MFI so I can have 300whp out of a 1.8l and 28mpg with a factory idle. Let's get rid of that 5 wire wideband O2 sensor as well and the ECU that samples it regularly.


I guess you guys can not learn from the "ricers" who are lightyears ahead of you guys on the tuning curve.

Silly plebeians and their pathetic appliance race cars.

[mightyohm]

To the guys who are saying you can't run EFI with rowdy/wild cams - you are wrong. I've done it (and it was even on a 914) and drivability was excellent, except for a lumpy idle that did not sound unlike the Hondas in the video above.

There are only two advantages MFI has over EFI that I can see:

1. You can use very free flowing intake systems like ITBs without worrying about MAP or MAF sensors.

2. You have a 200psi high pressure side driving the fuel injectors, which theoretically results in better fuel atomization and some free HP.

Aside from that, MFI is a bitch to tune and a compromise on anything other than the exact engine it was designed for, so most likely you could get a better tune with EFI (and more HP) on any given non-stock engine combo.

Also, to the guys who are telling the Honda guy to shut up, it might pay to have a more open mind.

[mike_the_man]

I'm making an assumption here, but I think the original poster and Krusty were both referring to the original stock Fuel Injection on a 914. If that's the case, then I'm pretty sure running crazy cams doesn't work. With a true modern EFI, it's a whole different ball game.

In any case, the point of this thread was to ask if it's possible to run MFI in a 914. Honda boy seems to have gotten things off topic here. Unfortunately, I know next to nothing about MFI, so I can't give a helpful answer.

Cheers,

[markb]

Deleted, so as not to offend anyone.

I'll keep my opinions to myself.

[mightyohm]

I'm making an assumption here, but I think the original poster and Krusty were both referring to the original stock Fuel Injection on a 914. If that's the case, then I'm pretty sure running crazy cams doesn't work. With a true modern EFI, it's a whole different ball game.

In any case, the point of this thread was to ask if it's possible to run MFI in a 914. Honda boy seems to have gotten things off topic here. Unfortunately, I know next to nothing about MFI, so I can't give a helpful answer.

Cheers,

Sorry, I thought that they both meant aftermarket EFI. If you're talking about D-jet, then yes, D-jet is very limited.

And regarding MFI, I answered the original posters question above. I drove a car with MFI for years and tinkered with it constantly (because it never ran right, it had a worn out injection pump and what was likely a non stock motor). I would say that I have an above average knowledge of the MFI system. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[mightyohm]

Mark, I don't like the attitude expressed in your post. I have a lot of respect for the Captain and would have much less respect if I was forbidden to disagree with him occasionally, whether I voice it here or not.

I also don't like the hostility I see here towards people whose automotive knowledge doesn't happen to be 100% 914-centric.

[ghuff]

It makes over 300whp daily driven on a very conservative amount of boost. I have enough fuel injector to make 600 wheel horsepower to 700whp on 93 octane pump, about 500-550whp on E85 ethanol. I average 28mpg with my foot out of it putting around.

(IMG:http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/3333/p7090018.jpg)
(IMG:http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/404/p7090025.jpg)
(IMG:http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/7576/p7090027.jpg)
(IMG:http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/1382/p7090015.jpg)
(IMG:http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/6459/p7090023.jpg)



I don't know though, since this is a simple plebeian car such as a volkswagen or an audi, it can not simply even exist in the same dimension or be subject to the same laws of thermodynamics, physics and reality as a fine auto like a Porsche.


I also guess since I used a honda oem fuel injection component on the vehicle that it has been tainted by crappy rice, and that nullifies the fact that the car makes well over 300whp and 300ftlbs at the front wheels


I would love to see these results with MFI. Oh yeah this is all done on a stock ECU as well, stock ignition coils. Just different injectors and a honda part!

*Gasp*

[McMark]

Ghuff, calm down. Holy crap.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/yikes.gif)

[zymurgist]

Well setup MFI has HP advantages over carbs, CIS, and EFI. Right off the bat, there's more HP, you can use seriously rowdy cams, and the throttle response can be phenomenal.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

That's why I bought my 911. The PO did a stellar job of modding a 2.4 MFI unit (from a T), combined it with S cams and heads (IIRC), and it makes 190 horsepower and the 40-80 acceleration (seat of the pants feel) is phenomenal for a 40 year old car.

[mightyohm]

That's why I bought my 911. The PO did a stellar job of modding a 2.4 MFI unit (from a T), combined it with S cams and heads (IIRC), and it makes 190 horsepower and the 40-80 acceleration (seat of the pants feel) is phenomenal for a 40 year old car.

My favorite part about my MFI car was winding it up to redline and letting off the throttle. It would make this incredible intake howl all the way back down to idle, scaring any pedestrians or other drivers in the immediate vicinity... Great fun!

[mike_the_man]

Sorry, I thought that they both meant aftermarket EFI. If you're talking about D-jet, then yes, D-jet is very limited.

And regarding MFI, I answered the original posters question above. I drove a car with MFI for years and tinkered with it constantly (because it never ran right, it had a worn out injection pump and what was likely a non stock motor). I would say that I have an above average knowledge of the MFI system. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

No worries. If we're talking about aftermarket EFI, then yes, it's awesome. Once I rebuild my 2.0L, I'm really hoping to get some sort of EFI on it. No more crappy MPS would be wonderful! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

MFI looks equally or more complicated that good ol' D-Jet to me, but at least I understand D-Jet.

It makes over 300whp daily driven on a very conservative amount of boost. I have enough fuel injector to make 600 wheel horsepower to 700whp on 93 octane pump, about 500-550whp on E85 ethanol. I average 28mpg with my foot out of it putting around.

I don't know though, since this is a simple plebeian car such as a volkswagen or an audi, it can not simply even exist in the same dimension or be subject to the same laws of thermodynamics, physics and reality as a fine auto like a Porsche.

I also guess since I used a honda oem fuel injection component on the vehicle that it has been tainted by crappy rice, and that nullifies the fact that the car makes well over 300whp and 300ftlbs at the front wheels

I would love to see these results with MFI. Oh yeah this is all done on a stock ECU as well, stock ignition coils. Just different injectors and a honda part!

*Gasp*

Nice Volkswagen, and impressive numbers! Now throw a D-Jet FI system on there and see how it does! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[JmuRiz]

OK, lets just say each system has it's own place/pro/con etc, EFI, CIS, MFI.

BUT, if you want to know what MFI can do on boost:
(IMG:http://www.racecarpics.com/galleries/porsche/917-30.jpg)

FYI, I will be doing an EFI conversion on my old M110 Mercedes and future 914 motors...easiest way to have a more modern fuel delivery on an old car.

Also think we lost the whole idea of the original post, I think the poster has ITB and MFI mixed up.