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> Why do TR6 bring more $ than 914
dflesburg
post Jun 6 2008, 01:10 PM
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Can someone explain this to me?
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Joe Bob
post Jun 7 2008, 08:26 AM
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The Whitworth Screw Thread System
by Robert E. Reilly, P.E.

Did you ever start to do some mechanical work on your Jaguar and discover that none of your wrenches seem to quite fit on the bolt head? A friend of mine recently bought a pre-war SS Jaguar, and he made that comment to me. I then introduced him to the Whitworth wrench, of which he had never before heard. These tools with the strange and incomprehensible markings were once common enough that even Sears Roebuck and Snap-On carried them. Now they are getting harder to find as people's memories of what they were all about fade into the mists of outdated engineering. Many owners of earlier Jaguars are to varying extents familiar with the Whitworth screw thread system, but some are not. Perhaps some other readers will find a refresher course in the Whitworth system helpful and interesting.

Before the mid-nineteenth century, nuts and bolts were individually hand-made, specifically matched and were generally not interchangeable. Serious efforts to standardize screw threads began in 1841, when Sir Joseph Whitworth proposed a standard screw thread form based on a constant thread angle of 55 degrees. This became known as the Whitworth thread, and gained acceptance in British industry. Outside diameters of bolts began at 1/8" and increased by fractional inch increments, with a whole number of threads per inch specified for each diameter. The peak and root of the thread are rounded to a radius of r=0.1373 x pitch. The depth of the thread is d=0.6403 x pitch. Pitch is the number of inches per thread, or the inverse of threads per inch.

About the same time, an American named William Sellers developed a screw thread system based on a 60 degree thread angle, which was originally called the Sellers thread, then the United States Standard or USS thread, and finally in 1948 the Unified National Series, including UNC (coarse), UNF (fine), and UNEF (extra-fine). The UNF series is sometimes called SAE (for Society of Automotive Engineers) or ANF (for American National Fine). These threads have flat peaks and roots, with the depth of the thread being d=0.649519 x pitch.

The Germans, Swiss and French each developed their own metric screw thread forms. The metric world eventually agreed in 1898 on the Systeme Internationale (SI) metric thread series, with a 60 degree thread angle, but the watchmakers and optical measuring instrument makers each still have their own special threads.

The British Standard Whitworth (BSW), British Standard Fine (BSF), British Standard Parallel Pipe (BSPP), and British Standard Tapered Pipe (BSTP) are all thread series based on the Whitworth screw thread form. British Association (BA) screw threads have a thread angle of 47-1/2 degrees and are based on the Swiss Thury thread. Screw threads in these series are found on all older British vehicles. BSF is commonly used on engines and drive train components and body fasteners, BA is used to attach small clips and electrical parts, BSPP is found on the banjo bolts of water pumps and SU carbs and fuel pumps, but the Jaguar parts catalogues call out ANF sizes for many large suspension fasteners.

In 1965 the British Standards Institution approved a policy statement urging British industry to regard BSW, BSF, and BA as obsolescent, to be gradually replaced by International Standards Organization (ISO) metric thread.

For some reason now lost in obscurity, the distance across the flats of Whitworth hex nuts and bolt heads is not nice sensible fractions of an inch, nor is it millimeters, nor does it follow any discernable pattern such as a percentage of the bolt diameter. You are supposed to use special Whitworth sized wrenches. The sizes stamped on Whitworth wrenches refer not to the distance between the flats, but to the diameters of the nuts and bolts they are intended to fit. In practice it turns out you can get away with using metric wrenches in most cases.

It is very important to realize that it is not safe to repair damaged Whitworth threads with UNF taps and dies, or to mix and fit BSF and UNF fasteners together. The pitch or number of threads per inch is the most obvious difference, but more important and potentially disastrous is the reduction in surface contact area between the threads, which can lead to binding when torquing, loosening in vibration or complete failure under load. BSW and UNC sizes in most cases have the same number of threads per inch, so it is very possible to get these mixed as well. If you have a ruined fastener, especially a stud or nut on the engine or in the suspension, it is worth the trouble to get the right one rather than take a chance on something else getting ruined. One source in the U.S. for British fasteners and tools is Metric & Multistandard Components Corp. in Hawthorne, NY, (Tel) 914/769-5020, with branches in Burr Ridge, IL and Dallas, TX.

Robert E. Reilly, P.E.

Reference Bibleography

1. Kent's Mechanical Engineer's Handbook, 11th ed. (1936), Wiley

2. Machinery's Handbook, 14th ed. (1951) and 23rd ed. (1988), Industrial Press

3. Marks' Standard Handbook for Mechanical Engineers, 8th ed. (1978) McGraw-Hill

4. Standard Handbook of Fastening and Joining, (1989) McGraw-Hill

5. Tool Engineer's Handbook, 1st ed. (1949) McGraw-Hill

6. Metric & Multistandard Components Corp. sales catalogue, copyright 1977, 1994

www.metricmcc.com

Author's Note:

After this article was published in the Classic Jaguar Association newsletter, another member from the U.K. responded by letter and stated that the hex sizes were originally governed by the commercially available steel hex bar stock sizes, in the days before automated screw machines, when nuts and bolts were cut from hex bar stock.

______________________

Table of British Screw Threads

______________________

British Thread Nominal Size/ No. Threads Hex Head Width comment

Designation Outside Diameter per Inch Across Flats

1/8 BSW 0.125" 40

3/16 BSW 0.1875 24

1/4 BSW 0.25 20 0.438 - 0.445"

5/16 BSW 0.3125 18 0.518 - 0.525

3/8 BSW 0.375 16 0.592 - 0.600

7/16 BSW 0.4375 14 0.702 - 0.710

1/2 BSW 0.5 12 0.812 - 0.820

9/16 BSW 0.5625 12 0.912 - 0.920

5/8 BSW 0.625 11 1.000 - 1.010

3/4 BSW 0.75 10 1.190 - 1.200

7/8 BSW 0.875 9 1.288 - 1.300

1" BSW 1.0" 8 1.468 - 1.480

3/16 BSF 0.1875" 32 -.340”

7/32 BSF 0.2187 28 non-preferred

1/4 BSF 0.25 26 0.438 - 0.445"

9/32 BSF 0.2812 26 non-preferred

5/16 BSF 0.3125 22 0.518 - 0.525

3/8 BSF 0.375 20 0.592 - 0.600

7/16 BSF 0.4375 18 0.702 - 0.710

1/2 BSF 0.5 16 0.812 - 0.820

9/16 BSF 0.5625 16 0.912 - 0.920

5/8 BSF 0.625 14 1.000 - 1.010

3/4 BSF 0.75 12 1.190 - 1.200

7/8 BSF 0.875 11 1.288 - 1.300

1" BSF 1.0" 10 1.468 - 1.480

0 BA 6.0 mm, 0.2362" 25.4

1 BA 5.3 mm, 0.2087" 28.2

2 BA 4.7 mm, 0.185" 31.4

3 BA 4.1 mm, 0.1614" 34.8

4 BA 3.6 mm, 0.1417" 38.5

5 BA 3.2 mm, 0.126" 43

6 BA 2.8 mm, 0.1102" 47.9

7 BA 2.5 mm, 0.0984" 52.9

8 BA 2.2 mm, 0.0866" 59.1

9 BA 1.9 mm, 0.0748" 65.1

10 BA 1.7 mm, 0.0669" 72.6

1/16 BSPP 0.3041" 28

1/8 BSPP 0.383" 28

1/4 BSPP 0.518 19

3/8 BSPP 0.656 19

1/2 BSPP 0.825 14

5/8 BSPP 0.902 14 non-preferred

3/4 BSPP 1.041 14

7/8 BSPP 1.189 14 non-preferred

1" BSPP 1.309 11

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Posts in this topic
dflesburg   Why do TR6 bring more $ than 914   Jun 6 2008, 01:10 PM
KELTY360   Cause they leak more oil? :confused:   Jun 6 2008, 01:12 PM
URY914   Easy, there only 12 TR6's left in the world. M...   Jun 6 2008, 01:24 PM
SirAndy   Supply and demand. :agree: simple quantum physi...   Jun 6 2008, 02:40 PM
Headrage   I don't know that they actually do. I've ...   Jun 6 2008, 01:35 PM
ericread   Because TR6 owners are stoopid, stoopid people? J...   Jun 6 2008, 01:36 PM
purple   because people like to play with lucas wiring?   Jun 6 2008, 01:59 PM
r_towle   cause it looks better and its faster.... Rich   Jun 6 2008, 02:08 PM
plymouth37   cause it looks better and its faster.... Rich ...   Jun 6 2008, 05:01 PM
Gint   There are many on this board that call other peopl...   Jun 6 2008, 02:42 PM
Root_Werks   Mmmmmmmmmrust :drooley:   Jun 6 2008, 02:44 PM
ericread   I am not a snob. I am just better than anybody el...   Jun 6 2008, 02:49 PM
turboman808   They do??? Never seen this for myself. Can get a...   Jun 6 2008, 02:58 PM
Phoenix-MN   They do have a loyal following and they are fun ca...   Jun 6 2008, 04:31 PM
Phoenix 914-6GT   Sounds like a well built car :blink: With all th...   Jun 6 2008, 05:00 PM
SLITS   Because we like the Limeys more than the Krauts. ...   Jun 6 2008, 05:15 PM
1970 Neun vierzehn   Possibly because the TR-6 was the pinnacle ot the ...   Jun 6 2008, 06:55 PM
grantsfo   TR6 is pretty ...thats why.   Jun 6 2008, 07:02 PM
carr914   They do??? Never seen this for myself. Can get ...   Jun 6 2008, 07:38 PM
NoEcm   I want a TR8   Jun 6 2008, 07:50 PM
carr914   No you don't. One of the biggest pieces of cra...   Jun 6 2008, 07:55 PM
Headrage   No you don't. One of the biggest pieces of cr...   Jun 6 2008, 07:59 PM
So.Cal.914   They do have a nice look, the top comes off. Now f...   Jun 6 2008, 08:21 PM
r_towle   They do have a nice look, the top comes off. Now ...   Jun 6 2008, 08:59 PM
carr914   :rotfl:   Jun 6 2008, 09:05 PM
So.Cal.914   :D   Jun 6 2008, 09:35 PM
LarryR   The tr6 is a love hate relationship. I have owned ...   Jun 6 2008, 09:53 PM
NoEcm   What's the price difference between a cherry 9...   Jun 6 2008, 10:09 PM
LarryR   What's the price difference between a cherry ...   Jun 6 2008, 10:16 PM
Headrage   I would really like to have a tr4a some day thoug...   Jun 6 2008, 10:14 PM
LarryR   I would really like to have a tr4a some day thou...   Jun 6 2008, 10:18 PM
(*)(*)   English cars...got help us. I didn't learn th...   Jun 6 2008, 10:25 PM
SLITS   Let's see, positive ground? Yeah right....no...   Jun 7 2008, 12:17 AM
Vacca Rabite   [quote name='(*)(*)' post='104182...   Jun 7 2008, 08:01 AM
(*)(*)   British Whitworth I knew that... :blink: I weld...   Jun 7 2008, 01:53 AM
So.Cal.914   British Whitworth I knew that... :blink: I wel...   Jun 7 2008, 02:13 AM
dw914er   i saw a cherry tr6 on interstate 1 near morro bay ...   Jun 7 2008, 02:14 AM
rick 918-S   I've had several Brit cars. Hardly ever drove ...   Jun 7 2008, 08:07 AM
orthobiz   Whitworth? What is Whitworth? Paul   Jun 7 2008, 08:12 AM
(*)(*)   The Whitworth Screw Thread System by Robert E. Rei...   Jun 7 2008, 08:26 AM
geniusanthony   Holy Jeebus mike, Quite the dissertation. Will the...   Jun 7 2008, 09:53 AM
(*)(*)   Get it right Joe Bob....I 'are' smarter......   Jun 7 2008, 10:01 AM
kwales   Ya need to be careful with those Triumphs. My son...   Jun 7 2008, 10:19 AM


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