Off Topic!, Let the gas companys burn in HELL Options

[justdrive914]

WTF gas here in asheville NC is up to 5.10 a gallon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Something must be done
914's get good mileage we are tryin here!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ar15.gif)

no more of this for me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

how did it come to this? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[lotus_65]

capitalism is federally managed in an odd way to me.

imho, we missed the boat during the '70's oil crisis. we had a choice between managing energy with business relationships or infrastructure. we chose the relationships and allowed the business leaders to exert more and more influence over legislation. the result was continued reliance on foreign oil and the marketing of bigger and less efficient vehicles (for example).

we *should* have begun a concerted effort to level the field with advancements in alternatives (as some wanted to) then. that being said, it's not too late, but you see what the priority of the federal government is based on the attention paid to iraq over the last 5 years or so.

no one should have to give up their large vehicles, but they should have been marketed with clean diesel and other alternatives long ago, because most would choose the efficiency if offered on par with petro... even in the fat '90's, assuming the leadership maintaining the commitment to stave off our dependancy to the middle east.

2 things could help:

1- don't buy inefficient petro burning vehicles. tell leaders you insist on alternatives.
2- invest in american engineering and manufacturing, and elect officials who will do the same. america's ability to sustain itself has been gutted in the last 20 years, and no self respecting economist could expect the current model to end in anything but disaster.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/flag.gif) that's my take.

paul

[swl]

capitalism is federally managed in an odd way to me.

imho, we missed the boat during the '70's oil crisis. we had a choice between managing energy with business relationships or infrastructure. we chose the relationships and allowed the business leaders to exert more and more influence over legislation. the result was continued reliance on foreign oil and the marketing of bigger and less efficient vehicles (for example).

we *should* have begun a concerted effort to level the field with advancements in alternatives (as some wanted to) then. that being said, it's not too late, but you see what the priority of the federal government is based on the attention paid to iraq over the last 5 years or so.

no one should have to give up their large vehicles, but they should have been marketed with clean diesel and other alternatives long ago, because most would choose the efficiency if offered on par with petro... even in the fat '90's, assuming the leadership maintaining the commitment to stave off our dependancy to the middle east.

2 things could help:

1- don't buy inefficient petro burning vehicles. tell leaders you insist on alternatives.
2- invest in american engineering and manufacturing, and elect officials who will do the same. america's ability to sustain itself has been gutted in the last 20 years, and no self respecting economist could expect the current model to end in anything but disaster.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/flag.gif) that's my take.

paul

Amen to that paul!

What country is this?
Richest in the world
Largest Military
Center of the world business and Finance
Strongest education system
World center of inovation and invention
Currency the world standard of value

[RoadGlue]

What country is this?
Richest in the world
Largest Military
Center of the world business and Finance
Strongest education system
World center of inovation and invention
Currency the world standard of value

This is going to be fun:

What country is this?

The USA

Richest in the world

Not per capita. We actually rank 6th:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_count...PPP)_per_capita

Strongest education system

Finnland is considered to have the best actually. We rank near the bottom.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/11/26/...ain530872.shtml

Largest Military

We're number 2. China's is a lot bigger though:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_count...f_active_troops

Center of the world business and Finance

Maybe...

World center of inovation and invention

This used to be true, but I think the rest of the world has caught up.

Currency the world standard of value

For the time being...

This isn't the 1960s. Things have a changed a lot in the last four decades. I'm glad the rest of the world is doing better, but I hope we as a country can continue to be competitive in the new global arena.

[swl]

What country is this?
Richest in the world
Largest Military
Center of the world business and Finance
Strongest education system
World center of inovation and invention
Currency the world standard of value

This is going to be fun:

What country is this?

The USA

Richest in the world

Not per capita. We actually rank 6th:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_count...PPP)_per_capita

Strongest education system

Finnland is considered to have the best actually. We rank near the bottom.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/11/26/...ain530872.shtml

Largest Military

We're number 2. China's is a lot bigger though:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_count...f_active_troops

Center of the world business and Finance

Maybe...

World center of inovation and invention

This used to be true, but I think the rest of the world has caught up.

Currency the world standard of value

For the time being...

This isn't the 1960s. Things have a changed a lot in the last four decades. I'm glad the rest of the world is doing better, but I hope we as a country can continue to be competitive in the new global arena.

Glad someone bit on that one.
Those words were used to describe England at the turn of the 20th century.
England is still a strong country but the US superceded it in almost all those categories. So the question is will the same fate befall North America?

Shift happens.

btw - take this with a grain of salt.

[Gene]

the best option isn't natural gas. It is electricity. The infastructure for it is already available. It's cheap, easy to make and doesn't require fossil fuels. We could then go the clean nuclear route to produce our baseline supply and incorporate new technology of clean renewable energy as it comes online. Costs for solar panels would go down and eventually you can produce a good portion of your yearly energy. Biomass can be used to produce power, etc. The key will be either better battery technology/cheaper prices or advances in capacitor technology. The only oil we would then need would be for chemical processes and industrial uses along with transportation with large commercial vehicles.

advantages of electric:
1. electricity is cheap cost per mile is much lower than gas
2. power plants are much more efficient than your ICE engine and with it centralized emissions of the plant can be controlled. 80% efficiency for coal plants vs 40 something % efficiency for ice engines
3. you can incorporate renewable energy
4. distribution network is easily available adding new "stations" is as simple as putting in a new 220 volt/110 volt outlet
5. simplifies the design of vehicles considerably. Replace alternator, engine cooling system, engine. The electric motor is good for pretty much ever with only a few minor maintenance things needed.
6. equal or better performance from the electric motor to a standard ice engine
7. we have enough coal and nuclear grade uranium to power our country for hundreds of years even if we do not incorporate renewable energy.
8. I've heard but am not sure if it is true, that our baseline load at night could handle every current car that is Ice converted to electric without needing new power plants. We waste a huge amount of power at night due to needing to maintain the baseline load because most power plants can't be turned off and on.

disadvantages:
1. still need advances in charge technology to get charges down to 10 min or less
2. battery packs wear out after about a decade (Lithium). nano-scale capacitors appear to be the best option but are still in development
3. diesel and gas would still need to be used for trucks and heavy equipment for now
4. cost. Decent lithium battery packs that can provide 200 miles of range on a charge are in the $15K range and these packs last for 10 years or less. Lead acid packs wear out after 3 or 4 years at best these batteries can only provide about 40 miles of range on average. The cost of lithium type battery packs will drop in the next few years and just like lcd tvs if demand goes way up the cost will start going down due to advances in production.