Interesting 914 Article I just found, Jan 04 Classic Motorsports Options

[Tom_T]

This is an interesting older 914 article from 2004, which I just found perusing the website of "Classic Motorsports" that I recently subscribed to for the halibut!

http://classicmotorsports.net/articles/porsche-914/

Enjoy! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/type.gif)

[Tom_T]

Hey Dave,

I just found where I'd seen that picture of the 914 design studies in the Porsche Design Studio, but unfortunately it's not an online source that I can just post here.

It's in the #191 May 2011 issue of Excellence magazine, in the "Who really designed the 914?" article on pages 95-99, with the pic in question at the bottom of pg. 96 - note the sketch behind & between the 2nd & 3rd from left guys in that pic.

Due to copyright laws I won't photo/scan & post it on here, but you can get that issue from them at: http://www.excellence-mag.com/back-issues

... or just borrow one from a P-car local in your area. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

Cheers! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
... & Happy 4th Holiday Weekend! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/flag.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/jsharp.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/flag.gif)

[dlkawashima]

I just found where I'd seen that picture of the 914 design studies in the Porsche Design Studio, but unfortunately it's not an online source that I can just post here.

It's in the #191 May 2011 issue of Excellence magazine, in the "Who really designed the 914?" article on pages 95-99, with the pic in question at the bottom of pg. 96 - note the sketch behind & between the 2nd & 3rd from left guys in that pic.

I have that issue of Excellence. The caption on the picture says those are drawings of the 901 (911) and the 904, not the 914. The drawing between the second & third designers ..... are you saying it's not a rear view of the 911 but a rear (or is it a frontal) view of the 914?

[Tom_T]

I just found where I'd seen that picture of the 914 design studies in the Porsche Design Studio, but unfortunately it's not an online source that I can just post here.

It's in the #191 May 2011 issue of Excellence magazine, in the "Who really designed the 914?" article on pages 95-99, with the pic in question at the bottom of pg. 96 - note the sketch behind & between the 2nd & 3rd from left guys in that pic.

I have that issue of Excellence. The caption on the picture says those are drawings of the 901 (911) and the 904, not the 914. The drawing between the second & third designers ..... are you saying it's not a rear view of the 911 but a rear (or is it a frontal) view of the 914?

Dave, in my copy the caption reads: "...in Porsche's design studio with models and drawings of two contemporary 914 projects, the 901/902 [911/912] and 904."

As well as I can make out with my old eyes (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) , the clay model is the 901/902~911/912, the drawings behind L-R are the 904, not sure (maybe 914 or 911 side), 914 (frontal I think), then the white line or old time blueprint (blue background) maybe the other 914 study referenced in the caption. I wish I had a bigger clearer pic of it.

As the article said, the Gugelot design may have had some influence, but it's been refuted by Klie (who was there for the entire 914 design process) that they did any design work on the 914 under contract to Porsche. IIRC Gugelot maybe did later do some additional design studies for a 914 redesign as an after-the-fact design exercise.

[dlkawashima]

Dave, in my copy the caption reads: "...in Porsche's design studio with models and drawings of two contemporary 914 projects, the 901/902 [911/912] and 904."

As well as I can make out with my old eyes (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) , the clay model is the 901/902~911/912, the drawings behind L-R are the 904, not sure (maybe 914 or 911 side), 914 (frontal I think), then the white line or old time blueprint (blue background) maybe the other 914 study referenced in the caption. I wish I had a bigger clearer pic of it.

As the article said, the Gugelot design may have had some influence, but it's been refuted by Klie (who was there for the entire 914 design process) that they did any design work on the 914 under contract to Porsche. IIRC Gugelot maybe did later do some additional design studies for a 914 redesign as an after-the-fact design exercise.

I found the picture in question on several different websites, so I will assume it's okay to post a copy of it here. What I find significant is that the other websites set the date of the picture as 1963 ...... too early to have a 914 study in the Porsche Design studios. So that fuzzy frontal drawing between designers 2 & 3 has to be the 901/902 ..... unless it's the early Gugelot design from 1963.

http://www.9magazine.com/f-a-butzi-porsche...h-birthday.html

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/trackthoughts.com-12234-1309589684.1.jpg)

[Tom_T]

I found the picture in question on several different websites, so I will assume it's okay to post a copy of it here. What I find significant is that the other websites set the date of the picture as 1963 ...... too early to have a 914 study in the Porsche Design studios. So that fuzzy frontal drawing between designers 2 & 3 has to be the 901/902 ..... unless it's the early Gugelot design from 1963.

http://www.9magazine.com/f-a-butzi-porsche...h-birthday.html

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/trackthoughts.com-12234-1309589684.1.jpg)

Thanx for finding the pic Dave. I was able to blow it up with my Picassa & it appears that the one which I thought was a 914 frontal view is more likely the rear of the 901/911, since it appears to be part of a 4 view single sheet of the 901/911 with 2 sides, rear & frontal views which is divided by the old school mechanical square on the elevated drawing board.

I still cannot tell what the reverse print behind F.F./Butzi's head is - 901/911 or 914 sketch? If it's not, then somebody has misinterpreted the sketches in the background, and lacking a better print/negative with more clarity, it will be hard to identify the far right reverse print.

Whether the correct date is 1963 or 64 is immaterial to the 914's design, because I've read in different sources that the 914's design started in either late 63 or 64.

Clearly the 901/911 design was well advanced by the point of this pic, and the car was released to the public in either Spring or Fall `64 IIRC - i.e.: the 901/911 design was already a done deal & a more or less completed design project by that point, as was the 904 which was also released for production in 63/64.

That said, both F.A. "Butzy" Porsche & Klie have been very clear over the years that the 914 was the exclusive design of the Porsche KG Design Studio - and NOT of Gugelot (despite industrial mystery theorists' claims), and Porsche does have the internal documentation to back up the claim.

IMHO - credit should be given where credit was due, and not to later industrial conspiracy theorists.

As a design professional myself (Architect), I always found it extremely irritating that higher up bosses or outsiders devoid from the design process of a particular building would take credit for a particular design - especially when it was a successful award winner - especially when they had little or nothing to do with the project's design process.

It also must be recognized that ang such project - building, auto or industrial design, etc. - are not the product of just one "design genius", but of a TEAM of talented individuals, which all too often the design firms in question all too often negate & outright refuse to give any credit whatsoever of the talented individuals who bring projects to fruition.

So IMHO,
First - we should not be taking design credit away from the Porsche Design Team;

... and ...

Second - we should laud them for giving credit to the entire styling team in this photo - rather than just to F.A./Butzi.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)

[dlkawashima]

It's obvious the reverse drawing is not a 914. Here's a blow-up of the image for clarification.

Tom, with all due respect, I think you're misinterpreting the point of this picture in the Excellence article. The caption clearly states (at least it's clear to me) that the drawings in the background are of the 901/901 & the 904. I think the picture is there in the article to simply show Klie and Butzi Porsche as they were way back when the 914 was just a glimmer of an idea.

To your other points:

-I've never seen 1963 as the date of the 914's initial design studies. I've always seen 1964. For example, the Excellence article from May 2011 and the German article referenced by Sir Andy in his Mythbusters thread both state 1964 as the start date. Do you have a link to some articles that show the 1963 date instead?

-I wouldn't call Karl Ludvigsen an industrial conspiracy theorist. He is a well respected automotive journalist and a recognized authority on all things Porsche.

-I never suggested taking design credit away from Klie or any members of the Porsche Design team. However, I did ask how Ludvigsen could have gotten it so wrong.

-I agree that everyone responsible for influencing the shape of the 914 should be given design credit. Earlier I asked an open ended question: if a design team starts with a base design and then moves on from there, should the designer of the base design be given partial credit for the final shape? Porsche did not think so, as witness Goertz' lack of credit for the 911's final shape.