Interesting 914 Article I just found, Jan 04 Classic Motorsports Options

[Tom_T]

This is an interesting older 914 article from 2004, which I just found perusing the website of "Classic Motorsports" that I recently subscribed to for the halibut!

http://classicmotorsports.net/articles/porsche-914/

Enjoy! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/type.gif)

[Tom_T]

Hey Dave -

I'm not trying to shoot barbs at you, but have tried to point out the differences in Gugelot designs speculated to be progenitors of the 914, and that there was never anything documentary to prove that Gugelot even had a contract to do any work on it for Porsche.

Unfortunately, that blow-up of the reverse print or sketch certainly isn't the 914 we know, but I still cannot tell what it is.

At the risk of (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead horse.gif) ... You're misreading the caption, as the Excellence caption to the picture reads in full:
"BELOW: Heinrich Klie (at far left) and Ferdinand Alexander Porsche (at far right) in Porsche's design studio with models and drawings of two contemporary 914 projects, the 901/902 [911/912] and 904." [emphasis added]

Excellence is very clearly stating in the part which I highlighted, that there are two 914 designs represented in the Studio in that old photo - and just as clearly Excellence appears to be WRONG.
In our past few posts, we've both had trouble finding any one 914 project in that studio - let alone two! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Obviously the vaulted Excellence has made an error.

The well renowned "914 expert" Dr. Brett Johnson likewise has some errors in his vaunted book on 914 originality & restoration. He is also by the way a Veterinary Doctor who collects 356's & is in fact far more expert in his pet hobby of collecting & restoring 356s - than he is in the 914 world (puns intended (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ).

To answer your earlier question - I suggest that likewise - Ludvigsen either made a similar error to Excellence & Dr. B.J., made an overstatement (as to Gugelot's involvement in the 914 design), or repeating those theories of others without sufficient back-up, etc. People make mistakes, and fall into certain erroneous ideas, etc. - and Ludvigsen is human. Until it can be clearly proven otherwise, Ludvigsen is wrong, in error, or made a mistake, or whatever. Shit happens.

AFAIK Gugelot never produced any contracts, memos nor any other documentation that they were ever under contract to design a sports car for Porsche leading to the 914. I can tell you when I was a car crazy teen back at the time of it's design release in the late 1960's magazines, into the 1969 pre-sales blitz & throughout the 69-76 run of the 914 - that Gugelot didn't try to lay claim to the design - let alone release anything to prove their involvement in the 914's design, that I recall reading back then. It wasn't until much later that these Gugelot claims & theories started to surface.

If you want to counter-bust the Gugelot myth, then you yourself will need to do some primary research into actual hard copy documents from the period and from the Gugelot business - most or all of which will probably NOT be found on the internet. The web wasn't even an inkling in anyone's mind in the 1960's.

Back to the earlier drawing by Gugelot which you posted - IIRC this was an independent project which Gugelot pitched to BMW, Porsche, maybe Peugot & Fiat, & several other auto makers back in the 1960's, so elements of it's design could've been said to have showed up in several cars. As an "independent speculative project" done by Gugelot on their own initiative, that wouldn't qualify it as a project done for Porsche (nor VW nor the JV).

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-5409-1252585190.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-5409-1252585211.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-5409-1252585231.jpg)

While it's got some similarities at the frontal area to the 914's final design, it's not the same shape nor design front end - in addition to it being a front engined & RWD/rear transaxle design, with the spare mounted in a rear trunk. Additionally, the top sketch indicates a shaped rear targa glass similar to the 911/912 Targas (not arrow showing how it comes out, as the the arrow showing how the targa top comes off), while the model show the finned sails with an inset but sloped rear window - so even this design changed over time.

Those are an awful lot of design differences - and only some passing similarities of certain elements - to call it the 914's progenitor.
As I initially said, having seen it, it certainly could've influenced the Porsche design for the 914.

IIRC the late-63 start on the 914's design - which in no way "proves" anything about Gugelot's involvement BTW - was noted in this book:


AFAIK Goertz' got credit for what he did do in things that I've read on the 911/912 (901) design, which was not the final design - but rather other design studies which predated the 901 project. There's a difference between doing a predecessor project or design study which leads to a later one, and being in the continuity & flow of a design process leading to a final design.

I've had many of those over my career - even to the extent of design competitions where a bunch of competing designers enter their schemes, one gets selected, and then the client picks what they liked from all of the submittals & fold it into the new design solution done by the winning competitor (both for outside & in-house competitions & alternative designs' development). Not much one can do about that either! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I don't know what else to tell you about the Gugelot claim, other than to find good solid hard copy evidence that they did have an assignment from Porsche to do a design study for "Project 914" as it was called (in German of course (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ).

Cheers & Have a Great 4th Holiday! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/jsharp.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/flag.gif)