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> 2.0 stock(ish) rebuild, Initial carb jetting
AE354803
post Feb 24 2013, 11:29 AM
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Since this is my first major project on the 912, I figured I would make a project thread since I'll have lots of questions.


The back story:

Car is a 67 912 with a 2.0 914 type IV, Weber 40 IDFs, bosch .050 dist installed. Transmission is original 912 with 914 gears 3,4,5 installed, newly rebuilt (synchros, selector forks, etc.) 73 911 front end suspension/brakes/steering, dual zone master cylinder, ER polybronze all around.

I've been investigating a loud, clanking noise for the past few months. The noise happens regardless of engine/oil temperature or pressure. It is present below ~3000 rpm and then disappears entirely above 3000 rpm. When the noise is gone the engine sounds great. While this noise was present I have driven the car from San Diego to San Francisco and back, as well as San Bernardino and a few other trips, so I think I've put on approx. 2500 miles (it's been present and slowly getting worse (as best I remember) since I purchased the car (June 2012)).

The noise has bugged me but I always figured since everything ran fine that maybe this is just characteristic of this engine. However I stopped driving the car a few months ago because the more I ruled out what it wasn't the more I worried about what it was and it's eventual catastrophic failure stranding me and destroying the engine.

Seems to be coming from the center of the case. I've gone through the valve train and replaced a stripped stud, installed new adjusters and made sure everything was wearing and fitting properly (which it was).

After this did not fix the issue I decided that before something destroys itself and everything around it I would remove and rebuild the 2.0 so that I wouldn't have to worry in the future. I wasn't using the car just because of the noise and the gut feeling that it was a time bomb. I suspect an issue with a main or rod bearing (possibly multiple) or excess piston slop, maybe a deteriorated piston skirt.



The Project:

1. Remove and rebuild to mostly stock the 2.0 type 4.
I have Weber 40 IDF's, GA 2.0 heads, WebCam Hydraulic+Carb grind w/ WebCam hydraulic lifters (turns out to be some ), Bosch .050 distributor (will most likely install Petronix or other electronic points)
Turns out that I had low compression bus pistons, some unknown cam, the cam to cam gear mounting bolts were too long and machined the base and also half of the cam thrust bearing was missing. The crankshaft timing gear was no longer a press fit and could be removed by hand, the crankshaft itself had material missing due to the slop.


2. Rebuild specifics:

New (used) stock oil pump
Rebuild heads [new SS exhaust valves, guides and retainers, heads cut to accept new cylinders without gaskets]
new gaskets/bearings/rings throughout,
EMW 96 mm cylinders and KB 96 mm pistons
new reground crankshaft and gearstack,
494 webcam and mechanical lifters w/ double thrust bearings and new cam gear
Petronix electronic points and rebuild dist.
Static balanced rods (0.1 grams) pistons (1 gram)
New Sachs pressure plate
New motor mounts and heavier mount bar to frame mounts (1/4" steel plate)
Install engine to exhaust header flange supports (engine did not have them)
CB Performance rotary fuel pump
Cut to length pushrods and solid rocker arm spacers


3. Have a set of EMW bus headers that I will add heating tins to and install with a new header and muffler. Not until after the engine is back in and running.

4. Fix small issues found along the way (so far fix bumper mounting alignment and rear engine bar mounts need to have a steel tube installed w/ bolt through to remove play and prevent further wear.)


This is my list for now, I am expecting it to grow, thanks in advance for any help.

Andy
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Bleyseng
post Feb 25 2013, 06:13 AM
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looks that way and with the hydro cam you are leaving a lot of hp on the table.
New 96mm flat top pistons
Web cam carb cam
This will wake up this sleepy motor.
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AE354803
post Feb 25 2013, 11:14 PM
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QUOTE(Bleyseng @ Feb 25 2013, 04:13 AM) *

looks that way and with the hydro cam you are leaving a lot of hp on the table.
New 96mm flat top pistons
Web cam carb cam
This will wake up this sleepy motor.


Questions on 96mm:
Ultimately I want this engine to be very reliable and I'm willing to leave a little power on the table in order to do it. At the minimum I will put in better pistons, but for an additional $200 I can just go to 96 mm if it seems like a good fit for me.
My concerns are with cooling, adding ~4% surface area to the piston and removing 2 mm diameter from the cylinders will result in more heat going into less metal (unless the 96 mm cylinders are same OD->ID thickness).


Would going to 96 mm piston/cylinders reduce my reliability much?

Will I be able to use my stock rods with a 96 mm kit?

Can I continue using the stock oil pump? If I would need a bigger oil pump I would like to use one that doesn't require modification if possible. (engine already runs/ran very cold, took a while to hit 180F, highest was 210F)



WebCam 86 grind?
I was planning to swap to solid lifters, can anyone give me some thoughts on the webcam 86 grind? Looks like I should have a pretty decent power gain based on the added duration and opening the cam gives over stock and more duration over the current webcam hydraulic carb.

With the Anaheim swap meet coming up I am going to keep my eyes out for some piston sets up there. Any advice on what to check for? What brands/types to go for and stay away from?
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AE354803
post Feb 27 2013, 12:30 AM
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I think I might be missing a case bolt, not sure but I found an open hole in the upper case. I didn't bother counting all 20 case bolts due to laziness.



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Cupomeat
post Mar 2 2013, 08:33 PM
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QUOTE(AE354803 @ Feb 27 2013, 01:30 AM) *

I think I might be missing a case bolt, not sure but I found an open hole in the upper case. I didn't bother counting all 20 case bolts due to laziness.



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My engine and all the others I can remember did not have a bolt in that hole. I've used it for a strap to lift the engine on to the stand and other reasons. I could be wrong but I think you are good there.
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AE354803
post Mar 4 2013, 08:53 PM
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Thanks Eric for the info.

Had no luck at the swap meet this weekend so I'm starting to look for other peoples unused parts (save a little money).

I found what appears to be a good set of 96mm slipper skirt design (whatever that is?), looks like they are from AA?

Can someone identify what pistons/cylinders these might be?

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1208843





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Posts in this topic
AE354803   2.0 stock(ish) rebuild   Feb 24 2013, 11:29 AM
AE354803   Progress: Removed engine last night by partial dr...   Feb 24 2013, 11:32 AM
AE354803   So I pulled the engine apart enough to remove the ...   Feb 24 2013, 09:56 PM
AE354803   Seems like the rings are definitely going, I think...   Feb 24 2013, 10:01 PM
reharvey   I think you have a set of low compression VW Bus p...   Feb 24 2013, 11:46 PM
Bleyseng   looks that way and with the hydro cam you are leav...   Feb 25 2013, 06:13 AM
AE354803   looks that way and with the hydro cam you are lea...   Feb 25 2013, 11:14 PM
AE354803   I think I might be missing a case bolt, not sure b...   Feb 27 2013, 12:30 AM
AE354803   The Outer diameter at the bottom of the cylinder i...   Feb 27 2013, 12:43 AM
Cupomeat   I think I might be missing a case bolt, not sure ...   Mar 2 2013, 08:33 PM
AE354803   Thanks Eric for the info. Had no luck at the swap...   Mar 4 2013, 08:53 PM
AE354803   Anyone know where I can get a replacement for this...   Mar 4 2013, 09:06 PM
Dave_Darling   Also, I need a flywheel lock (the batman looking ...   Mar 5 2013, 08:36 PM
AE354803   So I'm waiting for an engine yoke to show up b...   Mar 5 2013, 11:57 PM
Dave_Darling   The "spacers" are the head gaskets. Sev...   Feb 25 2013, 10:15 AM
Dave_Darling   96mm cylinders should not require any case modific...   Feb 27 2013, 01:08 PM
AE354803   96mm cylinders should not require any case modifi...   Feb 27 2013, 02:23 PM
Dave_Darling   Probably not, but it depends on about a zillion ot...   Feb 27 2013, 08:22 PM
pnewman   Please keep us up to date on your progress. It is...   Mar 1 2013, 09:12 PM
'73-914kid   Valve pockets in the pistons make me want to think...   Mar 4 2013, 08:59 PM
'73-914kid   Hex bar pivot Those ball sockets tend to wear ou...   Mar 4 2013, 09:47 PM
euro911   Pelican Parts has the flywheel lock   Mar 4 2013, 11:23 PM
Vacca Rabite   You should get to know European Motor Works. IMO...   Mar 5 2013, 02:14 AM
AE354803   You should get to know European Motor Works. IM...   Mar 5 2013, 11:48 AM
Vacca Rabite   Are the Keith Black better quality parts than AA ...   Mar 5 2013, 08:21 PM
euro911   Is it a wobble, or just side to side play? What r...   Mar 6 2013, 12:46 AM
AE354803   Is it a wobble, or just side to side play? What ...   Mar 6 2013, 10:47 AM
Vacca Rabite   There is a gap between the bushings and the crank....   Mar 6 2013, 09:56 AM
euro911   A 'deep clunk' is usually indicative of a ...   Mar 6 2013, 11:30 AM
AE354803   The engine yoke finally came in after a short misd...   Mar 12 2013, 12:15 PM
Vacca Rabite   Head gaskets. A lot of folks here do not run them...   Mar 12 2013, 12:43 PM
AE354803   Head gaskets. A lot of folks here do not run the...   Mar 12 2013, 01:10 PM
Michelj13   Measure and find out EXACTLY what your compression...   Mar 13 2013, 08:06 AM
AE354803   Engine torn down and all case bolts removed. Can...   Mar 16 2013, 05:01 PM
Dave_Darling   You missed a bolt. If the case doesn't come a...   Mar 16 2013, 07:40 PM
reharvey   You missed a bolt. If the case doesn't come ...   Mar 16 2013, 09:09 PM
AE354803   You missed a bolt. If the case doesn't come ...   Mar 16 2013, 09:12 PM
Dave_Darling   Yes, they're held in by plastic "vibratio...   Mar 17 2013, 10:31 AM
AE354803   Missed the one behind the flywheel, hard to see it...   Mar 19 2013, 12:00 AM
brant   definitely missed a bolt I destroyed one case for ...   Mar 17 2013, 10:37 AM
Valy   The cam looks to be aftermarket. The bolts between...   Mar 19 2013, 06:20 PM
Valy   Here is how the cam bolts should look like so they...   Mar 19 2013, 06:25 PM
Vacca Rabite   :agree: Your cam bolts self machined themselves i...   Mar 19 2013, 06:32 PM
AE354803   :agree: Your cam bolts self machined themselves ...   Mar 19 2013, 08:36 PM
Valy   The cam gear angled teeth create an axial pushing ...   Mar 19 2013, 10:19 PM
AE354803   Based on this pictures from Van's 914 engine r...   Mar 19 2013, 11:25 PM
Valy   The bolts don't hit the bearing. I think that ...   Mar 20 2013, 09:59 AM
AE354803   I checked the side play of the rods on the crank, ...   Mar 20 2013, 11:55 PM
bugsy0   The bolts don't hit the bearing. I think that...   Mar 28 2013, 10:41 PM
AE354803   The bolts don't hit the bearing. I think tha...   Mar 29 2013, 09:22 AM
Valy   Buffle Biddle plate is not a must. It should helon...   Mar 21 2013, 10:00 AM
AE354803   I'm pretty sure my case should be dual oil pre...   Mar 21 2013, 08:47 PM
Valy   You are not alone. I have a case that is not dual ...   Mar 21 2013, 10:13 PM
Vacca Rabite   Neither is mine. Zach   Mar 22 2013, 06:10 AM
Dave_Darling   The book is wrong, many 914 cases are single-relie...   Mar 22 2013, 08:36 AM
AE354803   The book is wrong, many 914 cases are single-reli...   Mar 22 2013, 09:55 AM
Vacca Rabite   You shoukd have zero play on the cam drive gear. I...   Mar 22 2013, 06:13 PM
two-strokejohn   Check bughaus.com for your vibration dampers and o...   Mar 22 2013, 06:53 PM
Valy   The gaskets set contains the dumpers. I guess you...   Mar 22 2013, 07:58 PM
Vacca Rabite   The gaskets set contains the dampers. I guess you...   Mar 22 2013, 08:23 PM
Valy   Victor Reinz has them   Mar 22 2013, 11:00 PM
AE354803   Parts are starting to roll in, heads will be done ...   Mar 28 2013, 12:09 PM
Vacca Rabite   Last question first: Take your case to a local mac...   Mar 28 2013, 09:27 PM
AE354803   All rotating mass needs to be balanced. Crank,...   Mar 29 2013, 09:28 AM
bugsy0   So what's the conclusion on why the original c...   Mar 28 2013, 10:36 PM
bugsy0   I guess I could answer my own question with someth...   Mar 28 2013, 10:49 PM
Vacca Rabite   Well, aluminum. Not magnesium. T4 cases are alum...   Mar 29 2013, 07:21 AM
Cap'n Krusty   If the crankshaft gear were even slightly flawed, ...   Mar 29 2013, 09:44 AM
AE354803   Thanks Cap'n, I'm replacing the cam gear a...   Mar 29 2013, 10:00 AM
AE354803   Just wonderful, finally took the crank gear assemb...   Mar 29 2013, 10:19 PM
Vacca Rabite   Thats not good! Nice metal shaving on the cran...   Mar 30 2013, 07:28 PM
AE354803   Trying to find a used crank that isn't undersi...   Mar 30 2013, 11:22 PM
jcd914   Trying to find a used crank that isn't unders...   Mar 30 2013, 11:33 PM
Vacca Rabite   If you are building a stockish motor you do not ne...   Mar 31 2013, 08:00 PM
AE354803   Ended up ordering a DPR crank DPR Machine Shop th...   Apr 1 2013, 09:23 AM
AE354803   Took apart the oil pump and took measurements. It...   Apr 1 2013, 11:01 PM
Vacca Rabite   Pump failure comes at the driveshaft. Yours looks ...   Apr 2 2013, 07:34 AM
craig downs   Not necessarily The pin that is pressed in can ove...   Apr 2 2013, 09:05 AM
AE354803   Not necessarily The pin that is pressed in can ov...   Apr 2 2013, 09:41 AM
Vacca Rabite   Not necessarily The pin that is pressed in can ov...   Apr 2 2013, 09:50 AM
Valy   The measurement you should care about is the axial...   Apr 2 2013, 10:42 AM
AE354803   I can really only measure axial movement for the d...   Apr 2 2013, 10:47 AM
Valy   Lapping compound can't do any good. If you ins...   Apr 2 2013, 12:48 PM
AE354803   What brand of bearings are the most reliable? Con...   Apr 3 2013, 12:55 AM
Valy   What brand of bearings are the most reliable? Co...   Apr 3 2013, 02:25 PM
AE354803   Got the heads back, installed the solid spacers wh...   Apr 13 2013, 04:53 PM
AE354803   I'm rebuilding the oil pump in preparation for...   Apr 30 2013, 08:39 PM
Vacca Rabite   There are those who will disagree with me and say ...   Apr 3 2013, 08:49 AM
pilothyer   Oil pump to crankcase nuts 14 ft lb according to: ...   Apr 30 2013, 09:33 PM
AE354803   Got that spec, thanks though. I'm looking for...   Apr 30 2013, 09:39 PM
pilothyer   My bad.....wrong bolts per your question   Apr 30 2013, 09:34 PM
pilothyer   As a builder of many type 4 engines as well as a p...   Apr 30 2013, 10:04 PM
Java2570   I'm pretty sure that in his video, Jake mentio...   May 1 2013, 06:18 AM
AE354803   Sound good to me. Maybe I'll throw some blue ...   May 1 2013, 11:07 AM
AE354803   Where can I remove material from the Keith Black p...   May 5 2013, 11:43 PM
AE354803   I've been looking at the pistons and I think I...   May 8 2013, 01:08 PM
AE354803   I'm measuring the piston-cylinder gap. Spec i...   May 8 2013, 06:43 PM
Valy   All pistons have oval skirts as you measured. The ...   May 8 2013, 07:56 PM
AE354803   The top had the same large gap all the way around,...   May 8 2013, 09:19 PM
AE354803   During platigage fit today, found out the cam thru...   May 11 2013, 06:57 PM
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