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> Type 4 mechanical compression ratio, Why is the factory compression so low?
Beebo Kanelle
post Feb 11 2016, 01:03 PM
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OK, here's a fun one for the novice to ponder and you experts to answer:

Why is the factory mechanical CR so low?

and for reference, what is the highest mechanical CR that can be physically achieved? assume no octane limitations -

I'm just looking for the design limit for the highest CR that can be / has been in a Type 4 engine using available technology.

Thanks

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Dave_Darling
post Feb 11 2016, 04:10 PM
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Assuming you aren't actually trying to burn anything, and are in a vacuum to boot, the maximum compression ratio is infinite. If you have zero volume in the chamber when the piston is at the top of its travel, you will have ((swept + 0) / 0):1 compression, which is infinite or undefined (depending on who you ask).

We need some space up at the top of travel for the air and fuel, obviously. We also need space for the slop in the rod bearings, wrist pins, etc., and for things to grow as they heat up. So there is a minimum amount of space needed, but how much depends on a lot of factors.

The stock 914 compression ratio is relatively low because it is set up to avoid pre-ignition, or detonation, or pinging. Much like all engines.

The engine has a pretty primitive design. The wedge-shaped combustion chambers are OK, but not great, so you can get detonation more easily than with a more advanced shape.. The cam is very mild so you don't have compression pressure "leak out" on overlap, which means you need a lower compression ratio.

The engine management system is primitive (D-jet, L-jet) or even more primitive (carbs) so you can't tune it closer to the edge and rely on the engine management to save you from detonation.

An air-cooled motor cools the way it wants to, and it is hard to get parts of it to run cooler than they want to. Water will absorb heat a lot better than air will, and you can run fine passages where you want them to go, and control the heat in various parts of the engine better. Having specific things get hot will lead to detonation more easily than keeping them cooler, though of course there are things you want to be hot for efficiency's sake.

The 914's compression ratio is not out of the normal range for the time the motor was designed, as Mark said. There were cars that ran higher compression, and some that ran lower.

Today, there are gasoline-powered cars that run over 14:1 compression, but those are pushing things! The highest I remember hearing about in a 914 motor is about 12.5:1, and that required race gas and had a big lumpy cam and cubic dollars sunk into the heads.

--DD
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Beebo Kanelle   Type 4 mechanical compression ratio   Feb 11 2016, 01:03 PM
914_teener   OK, here's a fun one for the novice to ponder...   Feb 11 2016, 01:27 PM
Mark Henry   Kind of funny way of asking what is the max HP a T...   Feb 11 2016, 02:19 PM
colingreene   Compression ratio is often set by quality of fuel....   Feb 11 2016, 02:22 PM
Dave_Darling   Assuming you aren't actually trying to burn an...   Feb 11 2016, 04:10 PM
r_towle   13:1 at 200 hp Race fuel only. Could not move the...   Feb 11 2016, 04:14 PM
Beebo Kanelle   Thank you one and all. I'm afraid I wasn...   Feb 11 2016, 04:35 PM
Steve Pratel   Thank you one and all. I'm afraid I wasn...   Feb 11 2016, 10:11 PM
Mark Henry   I'm sure it can be done, and maybe has, but ...   Feb 11 2016, 10:35 PM
jd74914   I am modeling the Type 4 based upon other engines...   Feb 12 2016, 10:27 AM
jmill   IMHO twin plugging and race gas are exotic extreme...   Feb 11 2016, 07:12 PM
brant   The materials used in a stock 914 engine do not li...   Feb 11 2016, 07:39 PM
ConeDodger   The materials used in a stock 914 engine do not l...   Feb 11 2016, 09:06 PM
Mark Henry   The materials used in a stock 914 engine do not ...   Feb 11 2016, 09:20 PM
ConeDodger   [quote name='ConeDodger' post='2301947' date='Feb...   Feb 12 2016, 12:17 AM
Mueller   The cooling, or lack of is why such low compressio...   Feb 11 2016, 10:07 PM
Beebo Kanelle   Thank you all for all your input. I knew that the...   Feb 11 2016, 11:04 PM
stugray   So to sum up, the enemy that needs to be addresse...   Feb 11 2016, 11:53 PM
Mark Henry   So to sum up, the enemy that needs to be address...   Feb 12 2016, 03:07 AM
Steve Pratel   Eh, I'm not buying it. Driveable? Porsche sol...   Feb 12 2016, 10:33 AM
McMark   If you're looking to improve thermodynamic eff...   Feb 12 2016, 09:50 AM
Mark Henry   If you're looking to improve thermodynamic ef...   Feb 12 2016, 10:21 AM
jd74914   If you're looking to improve thermodynamic ef...   Feb 12 2016, 10:25 AM
ra272   If you're looking to improve thermodynamic ef...   Feb 15 2016, 03:36 PM
Mark Henry   If you're looking to improve thermodynamic e...   Feb 15 2016, 03:54 PM
Beebo Kanelle   guys! I didn't mean to start a firestorm ...   Feb 12 2016, 12:12 PM
Mark Henry   guys! I didn't mean to start a firestorm...   Feb 12 2016, 01:40 PM
jd74914   guys! I didn't mean to start a firestorm...   Feb 12 2016, 03:50 PM
Mueller   You really cannot model the Type IV using past mot...   Feb 12 2016, 12:16 PM
Beebo Kanelle   probably not, it may all blow up - but I do want t...   Feb 12 2016, 12:24 PM
Beebo Kanelle   and, if it all blows up, Y'all will be among t...   Feb 12 2016, 12:29 PM
brant   seriously.... as a hypothetical discussion you can...   Feb 12 2016, 02:30 PM
r_towle   I would suggest you call around, talk with JAke Ra...   Feb 12 2016, 03:23 PM
HAM Inc   If your goal is 100hp/liter T4 you're best cha...   Feb 12 2016, 04:17 PM
veekry9   zcPGfjUO3Yg https://www.youtube.com/user/Grasshut...   Feb 12 2016, 07:19 PM
Mark Henry   The 380hp corvair engine, with the coin in it you...   Feb 12 2016, 09:32 PM
r_towle   I admire what you are doing, and that you can do i...   Feb 12 2016, 09:39 PM
Beebo Kanelle   wow! Thanks to all for all the input. to an...   Feb 12 2016, 10:00 PM
Mark Henry   wow! Thanks to all for all the input. to a...   Feb 13 2016, 10:56 AM
DBCooper   [b]In VW beetles, T4 upright fan conversions the ...   Feb 13 2016, 12:20 PM
Mark Henry   [quote name='Mark Henry' post='2302557' date='Feb...   Feb 13 2016, 12:47 PM
r_towle   Look at how the 911 turbo seals the head to cylind...   Feb 12 2016, 10:18 PM
Mark Henry   Look at how the 911 turbo seals the head to cylin...   Feb 13 2016, 11:55 AM
colingreene   Is this thread still going? I lost interest in try...   Feb 13 2016, 11:46 AM
stugray   It might have been lost in the thread: If you wan...   Feb 13 2016, 12:32 PM
DBCooper   Yup, original OPP with Joe's handwritten instr...   Feb 13 2016, 04:08 PM
Mark Henry   Yup, original OPP with Joe's handwritten inst...   Feb 13 2016, 04:35 PM
DBCooper   Yup, original OPP with Joe's handwritten ins...   Feb 13 2016, 05:01 PM
veekry9   vmkKqVc2g0s http://www.forestcitycastings.com/serv...   Feb 14 2016, 05:14 AM
Mueller   Design brief: 1) air/liquid cooled hybrid 2) ...   Feb 14 2016, 03:30 PM
Mark Henry   Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see him pos...   Feb 14 2016, 04:20 PM
veekry9   http://www.amazon.ca/Air-Cooled-Motor-Engi...%2C+L...   Feb 14 2016, 08:32 AM
Mark Henry   OK then....enough of the yakety yack...Build it...   Feb 14 2016, 09:38 AM
veekry9   https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=chrome...mpos...   Feb 14 2016, 11:01 AM
Beebo Kanelle   Thanks Veekry9! Found a 2nd edition (1972) o...   Feb 14 2016, 11:14 AM
Mark Henry   Thanks Veekry9! Found a 2nd edition (1972) ...   Feb 14 2016, 01:01 PM
Beebo Kanelle   Thank you, Mueller - I just have some ideas that ...   Feb 14 2016, 04:10 PM
veekry9   That's the beauty of the freedom of free will,...   Feb 15 2016, 12:27 AM
Mark Henry   That's the beauty of the freedom of free will...   Feb 15 2016, 08:44 AM
Beebo Kanelle   Its getting done... maybe not on a Canadian sch...   Feb 15 2016, 09:35 AM
Steve Pratel   :popcorn:   Feb 15 2016, 02:53 PM
cgnj   Please let this thread die   Feb 15 2016, 03:20 PM
914_teener   :popcorn: :bullshit: :idea: :toke: :sleep:   Feb 15 2016, 03:21 PM


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