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> Turbocharging a type 4
stownsen914
post Oct 12 2016, 02:04 PM
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I have heard the conventional wisdom that "you can't turbocharge a type 4 successfully." Is it just difficult, or can it really not be done well? I'm tossing around the crazy idea of turbo'ing a type 4 for PCA club racing, to put in the chassis in my avatar. My 6 in its current configuration is not competitive, so I can put a bunch of money in that, or do something different. I like a challenge, so why wouldn't the following work?

- 1.8 or 2.0 type 4 as a base. I would keep displacement stock or close to it.
- EFI for induction
- Properly sized intercooler and huge oil cooler
- A good aftermarket cooling fan
- Would be dry sumped
- I would work with a knowledgeable builder or shop to build the engine. I am not so familiar with type 4 race modifications, but presumably this would include reinforcing the bottom end, using Carrillo, Pauter, etc. rods
- Obviously the heads would need to be reworked for flow and possibly reliability

If I do the above, could a type 4 be built to withstand 15 psi of boost and make 350 hp reliably?

Scott
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Andyrew
post Oct 19 2016, 08:35 AM
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Superchargers simply can not make the power of a turbo. However there are many people that are using superchargers to spool the turbo similar to how in the old days people would use nitrous to spool the superchargers.

What some have found is that the supercharger becomes a parasite at higher RPM's to the turbo and they put a flapper that dumps the supercharger pressure once the turbo is outboosting the supercharger. Thats just one way of doing it.


Another is twin charging which is simply running both in the same intake track, which I think is the most commonly found method. If sized correctly it can be very potent. I have been considering it for my setup but I simply dont think I can use the power that that setup will make on my engine... I think I prefer to rev my engine out vs the instant torque. We'll see.

Another common method is multiple turbo's. The theory is that its better for spool, and gives you a similar top end as a medium size turbo with two small turbos. But in practice you will find that most high end tuners go to a single turbo application as its far more simple and has just as much if not more power across the board. I believe its so common among manufacturers today because it is more compact than a large turbo.

Finally there is compound turbos. Not something I would recommend in a racing application but BOY is there some power potential there. Unlike twin turbo's compound turbos have a small turbo that feeds directly into a large turbo, essentially spooling it quickly. The issue with a compound turbo is that you overspool the small turbo. This is very similar in practice to the twin charging setup as you have something that gives power down low as well as spooling an incredibly large turbo.



If hes only looking to make 350hp from a turbo 2.0L that wont be that difficult. As shown by Mike a nicely built T4 can easily do it on pump gas within a safe boost range. Decrease the turbo size a little bit, run race gas and lots of timing and you have a very nice setup for the track. For a track car it'll provide plenty of power in the lower register of his gear infact he might find that the torque it produces is going to be problematic for his transmission..
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stownsen914
post Oct 19 2016, 08:50 AM
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That's a nice build thread from the shoptalk forum. I haven't finished reading it yet, but definitely will.

As for what I can do for my build, I don't want to limit myself to 350 hp if more is reasonably available (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif). For trans, I'd switch to a 915 and use custom gearing to get the RPM range where I want.

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Andyrew
post Oct 19 2016, 09:12 AM
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QUOTE(stownsen914 @ Oct 19 2016, 07:50 AM) *

That's a nice build thread from the shoptalk forum. I haven't finished reading it yet, but definitely will.

As for what I can do for my build, I don't want to limit myself to 350 hp if more is reasonably available (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif). For trans, I'd switch to a 915 and use custom gearing to get the RPM range where I want.



So your basically looking at about 15-20k engine+trans. Right?





I dont think he can run a T1 at PCA events. It needs to be a "Porsche" motor and trans.


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Posts in this topic
stownsen914   Turbocharging a type 4   Oct 12 2016, 02:04 PM
snakemain   Here's the thread from when this topic came up...   Oct 12 2016, 02:44 PM
Jetsetsurfshop   I like that you posted this here. Should be some m...   Oct 12 2016, 03:37 PM
HAM Inc   It can be done, but the heads are indeed the weak ...   Oct 12 2016, 06:53 PM
Mueller   Would the heads benefit from ceramic coatings in t...   Oct 12 2016, 11:59 PM
HAM Inc   Coatings in chambers and ports definitely help. Bu...   Oct 13 2016, 07:14 AM
Andyrew   I dont see you making 350hp in a type 4 for any le...   Oct 13 2016, 10:42 AM
stownsen914   Thanks for the thoughts, guys. I'm giving this...   Oct 13 2016, 12:14 PM
stownsen914   Looks like I was writing while HAM was posting. I ...   Oct 13 2016, 12:50 PM
HAM Inc   When the chamber droops it takes the exhaust seat ...   Oct 13 2016, 12:07 PM
Andyrew   What are your limitations for your class in PCA ra...   Oct 13 2016, 12:45 PM
stownsen914   What are your limitations for your class in PCA r...   Oct 13 2016, 02:20 PM
Jetsetsurfshop   Does more boost mean more heat? Can you run two s...   Oct 13 2016, 03:10 PM
stownsen914   Does more boost mean more heat? Can you run two ...   Oct 13 2016, 08:23 PM
HAM Inc   All engines that see sustained full throttle (max ...   Oct 13 2016, 04:21 PM
stownsen914   Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I guess this ...   Oct 13 2016, 08:19 PM
HAM Inc   Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I guess this...   Oct 13 2016, 08:44 PM
stownsen914   Thank you again Len and others for sharing your th...   Oct 14 2016, 01:20 PM
Cracker   This may not be popular, and I do not mean to be a...   Oct 13 2016, 08:40 PM
Mueller   Seems like there is potentially a small market for...   Oct 14 2016, 02:15 PM
jd74914   Scott, what limits do you have on engine controls?...   Oct 14 2016, 02:51 PM
Mueller   Scott, what limits do you have on engine controls...   Oct 14 2016, 05:46 PM
stownsen914   Scott, what limits do you have on engine controls...   Oct 15 2016, 04:52 AM
mepstein   I imagine you have to decide if you heart is into ...   Oct 14 2016, 04:19 PM
zig-n-zag   Burning alcohol would keep head temps down. Add p...   Oct 15 2016, 05:41 AM
stownsen914   Burning alcohol would keep head temps down. Add ...   Oct 15 2016, 09:13 AM
ThePaintedMan   These days, anyone racing a turbo pretty much has ...   Oct 15 2016, 12:39 PM
zig-n-zag   FAT Performance does install 911 oil piston squirt...   Oct 15 2016, 02:23 PM
stownsen914   I read somewhere that when using twin-plug igniti...   Oct 17 2016, 09:07 AM
HAM Inc   I read somewhere that when using twin-plug ignit...   Oct 17 2016, 12:26 PM
Zimms   6r1Unv9L39k There was more detail about this on J...   Oct 16 2016, 07:44 PM
McMark   Twin spark for: 1. High compression 2. Big bore   Oct 17 2016, 12:22 PM
Mueller   Twin spark for: 1. High compression 2. Big bore ...   Oct 17 2016, 03:46 PM
McMark   Twin spark for: 1. High compression 2. Big boreI ...   Oct 18 2016, 08:46 AM
stownsen914   I'm missing the correlation between big turbo...   Oct 18 2016, 11:19 AM
jd74914   I'm missing the correlation between big turb...   Oct 18 2016, 01:34 PM
Andyrew   [quote name='stownsen914' post='2412779' date='Oc...   Oct 18 2016, 01:38 PM
Andyrew   My suggestion for minimizing heat gain from the tu...   Oct 17 2016, 01:40 PM
stownsen914   My suggestion for minimizing heat gain from the t...   Oct 18 2016, 08:53 AM
Andyrew   My suggestion for minimizing heat gain from the ...   Oct 18 2016, 01:07 PM
Mueller   http://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=...   Oct 18 2016, 01:18 PM
Andyrew   Good results from a GT3076. Seems to me those are ...   Oct 18 2016, 01:36 PM
Jetsetsurfshop   Been following this thread intently and want to ge...   Oct 18 2016, 03:50 PM
Mueller   Been following this thread intently and want to g...   Oct 19 2016, 09:10 AM
falcor75   If I was building a turbo setup for a track car I ...   Oct 19 2016, 03:34 AM
socal1200r   What about using a supercharger for the forced ind...   Oct 19 2016, 06:06 AM
Andyrew   Superchargers simply can not make the power of a t...   Oct 19 2016, 08:35 AM
stownsen914   That's a nice build thread from the shoptalk f...   Oct 19 2016, 08:50 AM
Andyrew   That's a nice build thread from the shoptalk ...   Oct 19 2016, 09:12 AM
HAM Inc   O.P., can you convert to a T1 engine for your clas...   Oct 19 2016, 08:45 AM
Mueller   [b]O.P., can you convert to a T1 engine for your ...   Oct 19 2016, 09:13 AM
HAM Inc   Technically, the T4 is a VW. It has VW stamped all...   Oct 19 2016, 09:24 AM
ThePaintedMan   I think for the amount of engineering involved and...   Oct 19 2016, 09:31 AM
HAM Inc   I think for the amount of engineering involved an...   Oct 19 2016, 09:40 AM
Mueller   I think for the amount of engineering involved a...   Oct 19 2016, 09:50 AM
HAM Inc   [quote name='HAM Inc' post='2413173' date='Oct 19...   Oct 19 2016, 11:34 AM
Mueller   Waaay too small a market for a high-end T4 billet...   Oct 19 2016, 11:48 AM
stownsen914   On the engine type, it has to be either Porsche bl...   Oct 19 2016, 11:36 AM
HAM Inc   On the engine type, it has to be either Porsche b...   Oct 19 2016, 11:42 AM
Mueller   On the engine type, it has to be either Porsche b...   Oct 19 2016, 11:52 AM
Mueller   I think for the amount of engineering involved an...   Oct 19 2016, 09:49 AM
Andyrew   He needs to be in the 1.8 to 2.0L range to run a t...   Oct 19 2016, 11:57 AM
stownsen914   He needs to be in the 1.8 to 2.0L range to run a ...   Oct 19 2016, 12:10 PM
ThePaintedMan   Well if you insist on the Type 4 route, it would p...   Oct 19 2016, 12:47 PM
Andyrew   Well if you insist on the Type 4 route, it would ...   Oct 19 2016, 02:01 PM
HAM Inc   If you want to go T4 and can swap to any head, fin...   Oct 19 2016, 01:07 PM
Jetsetsurfshop   If you want to go T4 and can swap to any head, fi...   Oct 19 2016, 03:29 PM
Mueller   If you want to go T4 and can swap to any head, f...   Oct 19 2016, 03:52 PM
Mueller   Still going to be some work due to the passages th...   Oct 19 2016, 02:35 PM
HAM Inc   Hate to spoil the Wasser fun, but... check the bor...   Oct 19 2016, 02:44 PM
Mueller   Hate to spoil the Wasser fun, but... check the bo...   Oct 19 2016, 03:03 PM
Racer Chris   I used to have pictures of a SCCA GT3 914 engine t...   Oct 19 2016, 03:04 PM
HAM Inc   I used to have pictures of a SCCA GT3 914 engine ...   Oct 19 2016, 03:13 PM
Andyrew   For the cost of a tig welder and some aluminum tha...   Oct 19 2016, 03:56 PM
HAM Inc   For the cost of a tig welder and some aluminum an...   Oct 19 2016, 04:22 PM
Andyrew   [quote name='Andyrew' post='2413344' date='Oct 19...   Oct 19 2016, 04:23 PM
Mueller   TIG welder (AC/DC) = check Machine shop = check Ce...   Oct 19 2016, 04:55 PM
HAM Inc   TIG welder (AC/DC) = check Machine shop = check C...   Oct 19 2016, 04:59 PM
stownsen914   I understand that the water jacket idea had been d...   Oct 20 2016, 05:13 AM
jd74914   I understand that the water jacket idea had been ...   Oct 21 2016, 06:12 AM
Randal   TIG welder (AC/DC) = check Machine shop = check ...   Oct 20 2016, 12:22 PM
HAM Inc   [quote name='HAM Inc' post='2413372' date='Oct 19...   Oct 20 2016, 02:23 PM
Randal   [quote name='Randal' post='2413745' date='Oct 20 ...   Oct 20 2016, 04:05 PM
Randal   [quote name='Randal' post='2413745' date='Oct 20...   Oct 20 2016, 08:58 PM
Andyrew   [quote name='Randal' post='2413851' date='Oct 20 ...   Oct 20 2016, 10:54 PM
HAM Inc   I have a customer who does vintage racing with a N...   Oct 21 2016, 08:15 AM
Mueller   I have a customer who does vintage racing with a ...   Oct 21 2016, 09:49 AM
ottox914   I have a customer who does vintage racing with a ...   Oct 24 2016, 05:42 PM
Jetsetsurfshop   What about that Polo motor? You could turbo that r...   Oct 21 2016, 10:47 AM
Mueller   What about that Polo motor? You could turbo that ...   Oct 21 2016, 11:06 AM
stownsen914   http://www.polomotor.com/ That would be smart mo...   Oct 22 2016, 08:42 AM
iamchappy   This is so much easier.   Oct 22 2016, 05:37 PM
stownsen914   I'd love to just turbo my 911 motor, but the h...   Oct 23 2016, 11:02 AM
stownsen914   So if I did this with a T4, I think I understood t...   Oct 24 2016, 01:42 PM
HAM Inc   So if I did this with a T4, I think I understood ...   Oct 24 2016, 02:34 PM
stownsen914   If you want to follow the small bore (max 91mm) f...   Oct 25 2016, 07:53 AM
ottox914   If you want to follow the small bore (max 91mm) ...   Oct 25 2016, 09:00 AM
ottox914   I'm "that fellow" from Len's pos...   Oct 24 2016, 05:28 PM
Mueller   Hey Len, Can you point out where on this cross se...   Oct 25 2016, 10:30 AM
Jetsetsurfshop   Hey Len, Can you point out where on this cross s...   Oct 25 2016, 10:39 AM
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