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> Turbocharging a type 4
stownsen914
post Oct 12 2016, 02:04 PM
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I have heard the conventional wisdom that "you can't turbocharge a type 4 successfully." Is it just difficult, or can it really not be done well? I'm tossing around the crazy idea of turbo'ing a type 4 for PCA club racing, to put in the chassis in my avatar. My 6 in its current configuration is not competitive, so I can put a bunch of money in that, or do something different. I like a challenge, so why wouldn't the following work?

- 1.8 or 2.0 type 4 as a base. I would keep displacement stock or close to it.
- EFI for induction
- Properly sized intercooler and huge oil cooler
- A good aftermarket cooling fan
- Would be dry sumped
- I would work with a knowledgeable builder or shop to build the engine. I am not so familiar with type 4 race modifications, but presumably this would include reinforcing the bottom end, using Carrillo, Pauter, etc. rods
- Obviously the heads would need to be reworked for flow and possibly reliability

If I do the above, could a type 4 be built to withstand 15 psi of boost and make 350 hp reliably?

Scott
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Mueller
post Oct 19 2016, 04:55 PM
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TIG welder (AC/DC) = check
Machine shop = check
Certified welder (expired) = check

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/MDB2.gif)
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HAM Inc
post Oct 19 2016, 04:59 PM
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QUOTE(Mueller @ Oct 19 2016, 03:55 PM) *

TIG welder (AC/DC) = check
Machine shop = check
Certified welder (expired) = check

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/MDB2.gif)

This is the sort of project that I think would be cool for a highly skilled, well equipped enthusiast. Someone with the know how, the time, and finances to give it a go.
You should give this a try.
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Randal
post Oct 20 2016, 12:22 PM
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QUOTE(HAM Inc @ Oct 19 2016, 03:59 PM) *

QUOTE(Mueller @ Oct 19 2016, 03:55 PM) *

TIG welder (AC/DC) = check
Machine shop = check
Certified welder (expired) = check

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/MDB2.gif)

This is the sort of project that I think would be cool for a highly skilled, well equipped enthusiast. Someone with the know how, the time, and finances to give it a go.
You should give this a try.


How much time do you estimate that job would take you in hours Len? Just like to have a baseline of time and or related cost. Thanks.
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HAM Inc
post Oct 20 2016, 02:23 PM
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QUOTE(Randal @ Oct 20 2016, 11:22 AM) *

QUOTE(HAM Inc @ Oct 19 2016, 03:59 PM) *

QUOTE(Mueller @ Oct 19 2016, 03:55 PM) *

TIG welder (AC/DC) = check
Machine shop = check
Certified welder (expired) = check

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/MDB2.gif)

This is the sort of project that I think would be cool for a highly skilled, well equipped enthusiast. Someone with the know how, the time, and finances to give it a go.
You should give this a try.


How much time do you estimate that job would take you in hours Len? Just like to have a baseline of time and or related cost. Thanks.

Hi Randal, I have no idea how much time it would take. It's not the sort of job I would be inclined to accept, but if I did it would be quoted on an hourly basis, broken down by categories: design/engineering; fabrication; machine/welding work.

There would be some major packaging hurdles to overcome to make this work.

I think a better approach would be to adapt 911 heads and go OHC. Mounted on top of Nickies with thermal coatings... That could work. Still lots of challenges, but it wouldn't be a big wet bandaid on a pair of ill suited heads.
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Randal
post Oct 20 2016, 04:05 PM
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QUOTE(HAM Inc @ Oct 20 2016, 01:23 PM) *

QUOTE(Randal @ Oct 20 2016, 11:22 AM) *

QUOTE(HAM Inc @ Oct 19 2016, 03:59 PM) *

QUOTE(Mueller @ Oct 19 2016, 03:55 PM) *

TIG welder (AC/DC) = check
Machine shop = check
Certified welder (expired) = check

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/MDB2.gif)

This is the sort of project that I think would be cool for a highly skilled, well equipped enthusiast. Someone with the know how, the time, and finances to give it a go.
You should give this a try.


How much time do you estimate that job would take you in hours Len? Just like to have a baseline of time and or related cost. Thanks.

Hi Randal, I have no idea how much time it would take. It's not the sort of job I would be inclined to accept, but if I did it would be quoted on an hourly basis, broken down by categories: design/engineering; fabrication; machine/welding work.

There would be some major packaging hurdles to overcome to make this work.

I think a better approach would be to adapt 911 heads and go OHC. Mounted on top of Nickies with thermal coatings... That could work. Still lots of challenges, but it wouldn't be a big wet bandaid on a pair of ill suited heads.


That idea sounds like a better approach. And the cams would be reasonably easy to change. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/flag.gif)

The "competition" to this would be buying one of the new boxster motors (300 or 350 HP/ 2.0 to 2.5 liters respectively) which will be available at a price less than $15K according to a few people I've talked with that will end up dealing with these motors.

But like the 911 heads approach, there would be engineering issues and might require a subframe to work. A 350hp motor in a 914 along with a transmission that would be designed for that HP, would be nice. The water cooling would be an issue and add weight. From what I've read the motors are plus/minus 25# of a fully configured 2.7 (6). http://blog.caranddriver.com/tech-dive-in-...ged-flat-fours/
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Randal
post Oct 20 2016, 08:58 PM
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QUOTE(Randal @ Oct 20 2016, 03:05 PM) *

QUOTE(HAM Inc @ Oct 20 2016, 01:23 PM) *

QUOTE(Randal @ Oct 20 2016, 11:22 AM) *

QUOTE(HAM Inc @ Oct 19 2016, 03:59 PM) *

QUOTE(Mueller @ Oct 19 2016, 03:55 PM) *

TIG welder (AC/DC) = check
Machine shop = check
Certified welder (expired) = check

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/MDB2.gif)

This is the sort of project that I think would be cool for a highly skilled, well equipped enthusiast. Someone with the know how, the time, and finances to give it a go.
You should give this a try.


How much time do you estimate that job would take you in hours Len? Just like to have a baseline of time and or related cost. Thanks.

Hi Randal, I have no idea how much time it would take. It's not the sort of job I would be inclined to accept, but if I did it would be quoted on an hourly basis, broken down by categories: design/engineering; fabrication; machine/welding work.

There would be some major packaging hurdles to overcome to make this work.

I think a better approach would be to adapt 911 heads and go OHC. Mounted on top of Nickies with thermal coatings... That could work. Still lots of challenges, but it wouldn't be a big wet bandaid on a pair of ill suited heads.


That idea sounds like a better approach. And the cams would be reasonably easy to change. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/flag.gif)

The "competition" to this would be buying one of the new boxster motors (300 or 350 HP/ 2.0 to 2.5 liters respectively) which will be available at a price less than $15K according to a few people I've talked with that will end up dealing with these motors.

But like the 911 heads approach, there would be engineering issues and might require a subframe to work. A 350hp motor in a 914 along with a transmission that would be designed for that HP, would be nice. The water cooling would be an issue and add weight. From what I've read the motors are plus/minus 25# of a fully configured 2.7 (6). http://blog.caranddriver.com/tech-dive-in-...ged-flat-fours/



And by the way, that 350hp motor, will eventually be RE'd and able to make HUGE power like the Subi's. But in the mean time, who has 350hp in a 914 autoX car, together with a Porsche motor?

Would sure like that configuration on any NWHA event.
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Posts in this topic
stownsen914   Turbocharging a type 4   Oct 12 2016, 02:04 PM
snakemain   Here's the thread from when this topic came up...   Oct 12 2016, 02:44 PM
Jetsetsurfshop   I like that you posted this here. Should be some m...   Oct 12 2016, 03:37 PM
HAM Inc   It can be done, but the heads are indeed the weak ...   Oct 12 2016, 06:53 PM
Mueller   Would the heads benefit from ceramic coatings in t...   Oct 12 2016, 11:59 PM
HAM Inc   Coatings in chambers and ports definitely help. Bu...   Oct 13 2016, 07:14 AM
Andyrew   I dont see you making 350hp in a type 4 for any le...   Oct 13 2016, 10:42 AM
stownsen914   Thanks for the thoughts, guys. I'm giving this...   Oct 13 2016, 12:14 PM
stownsen914   Looks like I was writing while HAM was posting. I ...   Oct 13 2016, 12:50 PM
HAM Inc   When the chamber droops it takes the exhaust seat ...   Oct 13 2016, 12:07 PM
Andyrew   What are your limitations for your class in PCA ra...   Oct 13 2016, 12:45 PM
stownsen914   What are your limitations for your class in PCA r...   Oct 13 2016, 02:20 PM
Jetsetsurfshop   Does more boost mean more heat? Can you run two s...   Oct 13 2016, 03:10 PM
stownsen914   Does more boost mean more heat? Can you run two ...   Oct 13 2016, 08:23 PM
HAM Inc   All engines that see sustained full throttle (max ...   Oct 13 2016, 04:21 PM
stownsen914   Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I guess this ...   Oct 13 2016, 08:19 PM
HAM Inc   Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I guess this...   Oct 13 2016, 08:44 PM
stownsen914   Thank you again Len and others for sharing your th...   Oct 14 2016, 01:20 PM
Cracker   This may not be popular, and I do not mean to be a...   Oct 13 2016, 08:40 PM
Mueller   Seems like there is potentially a small market for...   Oct 14 2016, 02:15 PM
jd74914   Scott, what limits do you have on engine controls?...   Oct 14 2016, 02:51 PM
Mueller   Scott, what limits do you have on engine controls...   Oct 14 2016, 05:46 PM
stownsen914   Scott, what limits do you have on engine controls...   Oct 15 2016, 04:52 AM
mepstein   I imagine you have to decide if you heart is into ...   Oct 14 2016, 04:19 PM
zig-n-zag   Burning alcohol would keep head temps down. Add p...   Oct 15 2016, 05:41 AM
stownsen914   Burning alcohol would keep head temps down. Add ...   Oct 15 2016, 09:13 AM
ThePaintedMan   These days, anyone racing a turbo pretty much has ...   Oct 15 2016, 12:39 PM
zig-n-zag   FAT Performance does install 911 oil piston squirt...   Oct 15 2016, 02:23 PM
stownsen914   I read somewhere that when using twin-plug igniti...   Oct 17 2016, 09:07 AM
HAM Inc   I read somewhere that when using twin-plug ignit...   Oct 17 2016, 12:26 PM
Zimms   6r1Unv9L39k There was more detail about this on J...   Oct 16 2016, 07:44 PM
McMark   Twin spark for: 1. High compression 2. Big bore   Oct 17 2016, 12:22 PM
Mueller   Twin spark for: 1. High compression 2. Big bore ...   Oct 17 2016, 03:46 PM
McMark   Twin spark for: 1. High compression 2. Big boreI ...   Oct 18 2016, 08:46 AM
stownsen914   I'm missing the correlation between big turbo...   Oct 18 2016, 11:19 AM
jd74914   I'm missing the correlation between big turb...   Oct 18 2016, 01:34 PM
Andyrew   [quote name='stownsen914' post='2412779' date='Oc...   Oct 18 2016, 01:38 PM
Andyrew   My suggestion for minimizing heat gain from the tu...   Oct 17 2016, 01:40 PM
stownsen914   My suggestion for minimizing heat gain from the t...   Oct 18 2016, 08:53 AM
Andyrew   My suggestion for minimizing heat gain from the ...   Oct 18 2016, 01:07 PM
Mueller   http://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=...   Oct 18 2016, 01:18 PM
Andyrew   Good results from a GT3076. Seems to me those are ...   Oct 18 2016, 01:36 PM
Jetsetsurfshop   Been following this thread intently and want to ge...   Oct 18 2016, 03:50 PM
Mueller   Been following this thread intently and want to g...   Oct 19 2016, 09:10 AM
falcor75   If I was building a turbo setup for a track car I ...   Oct 19 2016, 03:34 AM
socal1200r   What about using a supercharger for the forced ind...   Oct 19 2016, 06:06 AM
Andyrew   Superchargers simply can not make the power of a t...   Oct 19 2016, 08:35 AM
stownsen914   That's a nice build thread from the shoptalk f...   Oct 19 2016, 08:50 AM
Andyrew   That's a nice build thread from the shoptalk ...   Oct 19 2016, 09:12 AM
HAM Inc   O.P., can you convert to a T1 engine for your clas...   Oct 19 2016, 08:45 AM
Mueller   [b]O.P., can you convert to a T1 engine for your ...   Oct 19 2016, 09:13 AM
HAM Inc   Technically, the T4 is a VW. It has VW stamped all...   Oct 19 2016, 09:24 AM
ThePaintedMan   I think for the amount of engineering involved and...   Oct 19 2016, 09:31 AM
HAM Inc   I think for the amount of engineering involved an...   Oct 19 2016, 09:40 AM
Mueller   I think for the amount of engineering involved a...   Oct 19 2016, 09:50 AM
HAM Inc   [quote name='HAM Inc' post='2413173' date='Oct 19...   Oct 19 2016, 11:34 AM
Mueller   Waaay too small a market for a high-end T4 billet...   Oct 19 2016, 11:48 AM
stownsen914   On the engine type, it has to be either Porsche bl...   Oct 19 2016, 11:36 AM
HAM Inc   On the engine type, it has to be either Porsche b...   Oct 19 2016, 11:42 AM
Mueller   On the engine type, it has to be either Porsche b...   Oct 19 2016, 11:52 AM
Mueller   I think for the amount of engineering involved an...   Oct 19 2016, 09:49 AM
Andyrew   He needs to be in the 1.8 to 2.0L range to run a t...   Oct 19 2016, 11:57 AM
stownsen914   He needs to be in the 1.8 to 2.0L range to run a ...   Oct 19 2016, 12:10 PM
ThePaintedMan   Well if you insist on the Type 4 route, it would p...   Oct 19 2016, 12:47 PM
Andyrew   Well if you insist on the Type 4 route, it would ...   Oct 19 2016, 02:01 PM
HAM Inc   If you want to go T4 and can swap to any head, fin...   Oct 19 2016, 01:07 PM
Jetsetsurfshop   If you want to go T4 and can swap to any head, fi...   Oct 19 2016, 03:29 PM
Mueller   If you want to go T4 and can swap to any head, f...   Oct 19 2016, 03:52 PM
Mueller   Still going to be some work due to the passages th...   Oct 19 2016, 02:35 PM
HAM Inc   Hate to spoil the Wasser fun, but... check the bor...   Oct 19 2016, 02:44 PM
Mueller   Hate to spoil the Wasser fun, but... check the bo...   Oct 19 2016, 03:03 PM
Racer Chris   I used to have pictures of a SCCA GT3 914 engine t...   Oct 19 2016, 03:04 PM
HAM Inc   I used to have pictures of a SCCA GT3 914 engine ...   Oct 19 2016, 03:13 PM
Andyrew   For the cost of a tig welder and some aluminum tha...   Oct 19 2016, 03:56 PM
HAM Inc   For the cost of a tig welder and some aluminum an...   Oct 19 2016, 04:22 PM
Andyrew   [quote name='Andyrew' post='2413344' date='Oct 19...   Oct 19 2016, 04:23 PM
Mueller   TIG welder (AC/DC) = check Machine shop = check Ce...   Oct 19 2016, 04:55 PM
HAM Inc   TIG welder (AC/DC) = check Machine shop = check C...   Oct 19 2016, 04:59 PM
stownsen914   I understand that the water jacket idea had been d...   Oct 20 2016, 05:13 AM
jd74914   I understand that the water jacket idea had been ...   Oct 21 2016, 06:12 AM
Randal   TIG welder (AC/DC) = check Machine shop = check ...   Oct 20 2016, 12:22 PM
HAM Inc   [quote name='HAM Inc' post='2413372' date='Oct 19...   Oct 20 2016, 02:23 PM
Randal   [quote name='Randal' post='2413745' date='Oct 20 ...   Oct 20 2016, 04:05 PM
Randal   [quote name='Randal' post='2413745' date='Oct 20...   Oct 20 2016, 08:58 PM
Andyrew   [quote name='Randal' post='2413851' date='Oct 20 ...   Oct 20 2016, 10:54 PM
HAM Inc   I have a customer who does vintage racing with a N...   Oct 21 2016, 08:15 AM
Mueller   I have a customer who does vintage racing with a ...   Oct 21 2016, 09:49 AM
ottox914   I have a customer who does vintage racing with a ...   Oct 24 2016, 05:42 PM
Jetsetsurfshop   What about that Polo motor? You could turbo that r...   Oct 21 2016, 10:47 AM
Mueller   What about that Polo motor? You could turbo that ...   Oct 21 2016, 11:06 AM
stownsen914   http://www.polomotor.com/ That would be smart mo...   Oct 22 2016, 08:42 AM
iamchappy   This is so much easier.   Oct 22 2016, 05:37 PM
stownsen914   I'd love to just turbo my 911 motor, but the h...   Oct 23 2016, 11:02 AM
stownsen914   So if I did this with a T4, I think I understood t...   Oct 24 2016, 01:42 PM
HAM Inc   So if I did this with a T4, I think I understood ...   Oct 24 2016, 02:34 PM
stownsen914   If you want to follow the small bore (max 91mm) f...   Oct 25 2016, 07:53 AM
ottox914   If you want to follow the small bore (max 91mm) ...   Oct 25 2016, 09:00 AM
ottox914   I'm "that fellow" from Len's pos...   Oct 24 2016, 05:28 PM
Mueller   Hey Len, Can you point out where on this cross se...   Oct 25 2016, 10:30 AM
Jetsetsurfshop   Hey Len, Can you point out where on this cross s...   Oct 25 2016, 10:39 AM
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