Fat Performance Engine Rebuilders, 911 vs 914 Comparison- A Great Read Options

[914_7T3]

Enjoy the Below Blog

http://fatperformance.com/home/?p=681

[mepstein]

The post is a year old. Good chance the 914 engine was built 18+ months ago. If I was going to spend $20K for an engine install, it would have to have 6 cylinders.

[Tom_T]

The post is a year old. Good chance the 914 engine was built 18+ months ago. If I was going to spend $20K for an engine install, it would have to have 6 cylinders.

Nevertheless Mark, the FAT website isn't showing any announcement of a closing date - ergo my question to the OP, who is at least here in SoCal - & the date of the article is meaningless to my question. You're in NY, I'm right in Orange where FAT is - so your post added no answer nor useful info to my query.

As for a 6 vs 4 - even Raby (who learned from Ron & Gary) feels that you can get the same power with less weight from a spiked T-IV - not to mention much easier to work on in the tight 914 engine bay - than a 6.

If one were to try something new & different, IMHO a new 718 or 718S TT flat 4 waterboxer would be more interesting - than just slapping in yet another Porsche 6 or Subie! I'm sure some wrecked Boxster/Cayman 718 donors will be turning up ove time shortly! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

But spend your hypothetical check where & how you want! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

Anyone who really knows anything about FAT know if the are in fact still closing? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Otherwise I can call or run by next week.

Happy Memorial Weekend to All Y'all & Remember our Servicepeople past & present. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/flag.gif)

PS - per Mark Henry's correction noted - you're in PA/DE - still rust belt. ;-)
.... I was fortunate to have fled the rust belt in `63 when my Dad got his new job in San Diego!

My point was that my question about the FAT closing or sale (per Bruce) is better answered by a local who knows the FAT people - not someone across the USA. It is also poignant to the OP, since he's considering a FAT built motor.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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[Mark Henry]

The post is a year old. Good chance the 914 engine was built 18+ months ago. If I was going to spend $20K for an engine install, it would have to have 6 cylinders.

Nevertheless Mark, the FAT website isn't showing any announcement of a closing date - ergo my question to the OP, who is at least here in SoCal - & the date of the article is meaningless to my question. You're in NY, I'm right in Orange where FAT is - so your post added no answer nor useful info to my query.



Tom
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I don't think he was talking to you, he was talking to the OP. He doesn't live in NY and if you knew where he works you would know he has a well informed opinion.

If one were to try something new & different, IMHO a new 718 or 718S TT flat 4 waterboxer would be more interesting - than just slapping in yet another Porsche 6 or Subie! I'm sure some wrecked Boxster/Cayman 718 donors will be turning up ove time shortly! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

Good luck finding one cheap-ish, but it won't fit anyways, it's too wide.

As for a 6 vs 4 - even Raby (who learned from Ron & Gary) feels that you can get the same power with less weight from a spiked T-IV - not to mention much easier to work on in the tight 914 engine bay - than a 6.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) Sorry not even close, I have a $20K type 4 engine in my '67 bug, it a hell of a lot of fun, but 180hp after a couple years is meh...OK and it sounds like a dumptruck.

And lets compare apples to apples you're talking heavily modified 4 to a stock six.
The six I've built for my 914 should be 280hp although I'll be happy with 240-250.

Also a /6 is pure sex and it retains it's value (to a point) compared to a performance /4.

But spend your hypothetical check where & how you want! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

I am and so is Mark (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I wouldn't even consider a /4 for a 914 if I'm spending $20K on an engine upgrade.
...and I may be shooting myself in the foot for saying that as I build them professionally.
Personal opinion type 4 in a 914 is 2270cc 150hp, if you want more time to seriously look at other options.
YMMV
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

[Tom_T]

Mark, see my comments below inserted into your message in bold-italics, as well as at the bottom after your quotes ....

The post is a year old. Good chance the 914 engine was built 18+ months ago. If I was going to spend $20K for an engine install, it would have to have 6 cylinders.

Nevertheless Mark, the FAT website isn't showing any announcement of a closing date - ergo my question to the OP, who is at least here in SoCal - & the date of the article is meaningless to my question. You're in NY, I'm right in Orange where FAT is - so your post added no answer nor useful info to my query.

Tom
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I don't think he was talking to you, he was talking to the OP. He doesn't live in NY and if you knew where he works you would know he has a well informed opinion.

Corrected to PA/DE at my original post above. Point was whether they were closing as info for the OP considering a built T-IV, so age of the post or info from across the country isn't useful in this case.

Anyone can have an opinion agreeing or contrary, which doesn't negate either one. I know that he does front office at a Porsche resto shop. I quoted two guys doing T-IV builds & other VWs/etc. for Baja 500/1000 competition - also qualified opinions.

Mark H, your experience is likewise well informed, but there are others who still favor the T-IV

If one were to try something new & different, IMHO a new 718 or 718S TT flat 4 waterboxer would be more interesting - than just slapping in yet another Porsche 6 or Subie! I'm sure some wrecked Boxster/Cayman 718 donors will be turning up ove time shortly! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

Good luck finding one cheap-ish, but it won't fit anyways, it's too wide.

I said interesting - NOT cheap! They'll come up as wrecked cars with time, & they also said that the 908 flat-8 motor wouldn't fit in the 914-8, but Porsche did do it. I'm sure that some smart 914-Resto-modder will figure out a way to make that 718/718-S motor fit into a 914 - with a combination of body/chassis mods & repackaging some of the motor components, & modifying the rear suspension to a wider stance/clearance, etc. as necessary. Certainly not cheap, but also not undoable, as you suggest. There is always a way, where there is a will & ample bank account!

Another interesting build with unlimited budget would be to source an original 908 flat-8 & to a 914-8 Tribute car! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

As for a 6 vs 4 - even Raby (who learned from Ron & Gary) feels that you can get the same power with less weight from a spiked T-IV - not to mention much easier to work on in the tight 914 engine bay - than a 6.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) Sorry not even close, I have a $20K type 4 engine in my '67 bug, it a hell of a lot of fun, but 180hp after a couple years is meh...OK and it sounds like a dumptruck.

And lets compare apples to apples you're talking heavily modified 4 to a stock six.
The six I've built for my 914 should be 280hp although I'll be happy with 240-250.

Also a /6 is pure sex and it retains it's value (to a point) compared to a performance /4.

Well certainly NOT laughable Mark, as Greg & Ron have been in the business for a long time (longer than you), & are respected builders.

However, all of your points are duly noted Mark, but I & they make the counterpoint that the T-IV is a great option with less weight, as did folks like Ron/Greg when I spoke to them personally face-to-face. FAT has built race T-IVs up to 2770+cc & 250-350+/- HP naturally aspirated.

But spend your hypothetical check where & how you want! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

I am and so is Mark (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I wouldn't even consider a /4 for a 914 if I'm spending $20K on an engine upgrade.
...and I may be shooting myself in the foot for saying that as I build them professionally.
Personal opinion type 4 in a 914 is 2270cc 150hp, if you want more time to seriously look at other options.
YMMV
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

I think you just did shoot your foot a bit Mark! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Before I decided to stick with my stock 2.0 build, I did talk with Ron & Greg about doing a T-IV upbuild on a donor block to preserve my numbers matching 2L (Ron gave great shop tours BTW). We were talking 2056-2270 range, but it was a lot less than $20K plus a rebuildable 2.0 core (2010-11 prices) - so Apples & Oranges if anyone really can get a quality -6 & rebuilt for just $20K including core anyway.

From what I'm hearing around here at shops like FAT, AASE, Brewster, etc. - the T-IVs are running $15-20K+ (+ $1-4K core if needed), depending on the build - whereas -6 build is more like $20-30K + another must do $3-6K+ core always, since you need to get the -6 to build, plus all the -6 conversion parts (assuming it's not going into a factory -6).

So IMHO - there is still a place for a 2056-2270-2550-2770-etc. cc T-IV & still come in with more power & TQ, but for less than a -6.

Also, the flat-6s tend to need to be high revved to get into their TQ band, whereas the -4 tends to have a flatter TQ band which starts at a lower RPM, & is therefore more tractable around town, than a -6.

That was certainly the case for the stock 70-72 2.0 914-6 vs. the stock 73-74 914-2.0 powerplants - that the /4 was much more usable around town - regardless fo the -6's "soundtrack." I too know personally, since I drove several examples both back in 1975 when I was looking for my 914, as well as several other used 70-73 1.7s. 1.8's & the then new 75-76 GC /4 2.0s - before I settled on my 73 2L.

While it may not apply today as much - as it did back in the 1970-80s when I was DDing my 914, especially for a custom built-up T-IV - since I was doing a good deal of XC trips in my 914, my thinking was that I could get a 2.0 fixed at any VW shop on the road in a pinch - whereas the -6 would be harder & need a specialist Porsche shop or dealer.

Another option for the OP - today, if I were to need rebuild my 2L again - then I'd probably just go for a little more HP/TQ using the Euro spec P&Cs (8.0:1 CR, vs. USA 7.6:1), taking it from 91 SAE net/95 SAE gross HP > 100 HP + whatever a good builder can tweak out of it. Rich Bontempi at HPH in Redwood City CA also recco's that build as a nice little upgrade for nothing more than a regular 2L rebuild requiring new P&Cs (no cc increase is involved, just different P&Cs)

Mine has a stock USA spec <10K miles rebuild from my `80-83 rolling resto, which was stored since `6/85 - so I'm hoping it won't need more than a recommissioning & tune-up/hoses/fluids/etc. by my guy who rebuilt it in the 80's - who was Circle Porsche's 914 expert until he started his own shop in `72, & knows how to get the most out of these T-IVs, as well as on other aircooled P/V & watercooled Audis of the 1960's-70's for Circle & at the Austrian V/A/P dealership where he started in the 1960's.

I'm sure that he'd had my 2L turning more than the spec 91/95 HP both before & after the rebuild, based on other 73-74 2Ls that I & others had driven vs mine, as well as his & 3 other guys with them in his shop said (I had a standing offer to buy my 73 2L from them all ;-).

Unfortunately, he won't take on any new customers for aircooled cars, otherwise I'd have recco'd him to all (some of the major shops in the US working on T-IVs are still calling him for advice BTW).

So I would say that my opinion - although contrary to yours & Mark E's - also holds some weight, & is also backed by some very qualified experts on 914s. Ergo worth consideration by the OP & others reading here.

Cheers! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) & (IMG:style_emoticons/default/flag.gif) Memorial Day All!
Tom
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