Why Some Cars Don't Survive, I Can't Find The Original Post |
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Why Some Cars Don't Survive, I Can't Find The Original Post |
windforfun |
Feb 4 2021, 08:42 PM
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#1
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,863 Joined: 17-December 07 From: Blackhawk, CA Member No.: 8,476 Region Association: None |
Porsche has always used the highest quality materials. Also, the 914 design was in a class by itself. The British & Italian cars in a similar price range were really pieces of junk (no offense intended), but they were. Brand new Jags at the dealership would have drip pans under them. They may have been faster, but they haven't stood the test of time. This is where material science & reliability statistics have come into play. The Japanese auto industry have the statistician Deming, who trained Taguchi at the end of WWII, to thank for their success. We sent Deming over to Japan at the end of WWII to help them get their shit together. I took many statistics & probability theory courses in college & grad school. One such course was taught by Prof. Bonus who used to work on the reliability of Cadillac engines. I would typically attend his classes while tripping on LSD. His course was lots of fun. I think my final grade was a B. FYI. Cheers.
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gereed75 |
Feb 5 2021, 10:25 AM
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#2
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,261 Joined: 19-March 13 From: Pittsburgh PA Member No.: 15,674 Region Association: North East States |
As an ex Navy helo driver, don’t get me started. Let’s just say lots of moving parts flying in close formation, all of which have to keep working or you are in deep doodoo
Later involved in making parts in the aerospace supply chain with a descent familiarity with Boeing, Rockwell, McD, gE, Pratt Whitney, Airbus and others. Got to watch first hand the disassembly of that industry and deconstruction/adaptation of their disparate quality programs as they transitioned from “makers” to “assemblers”. All in all an interesting look into what was once the incredible manufacturing might of America. With the experience of all our members here might be an interesting topic for discussion in the sandbox. In the mean time, my take on cars was: American best mass produced quality with cost and sales and volume the over riding drivers Italian elegant engineering, worst materials British just quirky, one step above cottage industry Japanese very fast learners driven by high standards of design and engineering and materials German really good engineering and the absolute best materials. Hard combo to beat I think what you always have to consider is the volume of the market that these industries were serving at the time ( I assume we are talking 70’s 914 contemporary era) |
914_teener |
Feb 5 2021, 10:28 AM
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#3
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 5,205 Joined: 31-August 08 From: So. Cal Member No.: 9,489 Region Association: Southern California |
As an ex Navy helo driver, don’t get me started. Let’s just say lots of moving parts flying in close formation, all of which have to keep working or you are in deep doodoo Later involved in making parts in the aerospace supply chain with a descent familiarity with Boeing, Rockwell, McD, gE, Pratt Whitney, Airbus and others. Got to watch first hand the disassembly of that industry and deconstruction/adaptation of their disparate quality programs as they transitioned from “makers” to “assemblers”. All in all an interesting look into what was once the incredible manufacturing might of America. With the experience of all our members here might be an interesting topic for discussion in the sandbox. In the mean time, my take on cars was: American best mass produced quality with cost and sales and volume the over riding drivers Italian best engineering, worst materials British just quirky, one step above cottage industry Japanese driven by high standards of design and engineering and materials German really good engineering and the absolute best materials. Hard combo to beat The French don't even make the list..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif) |
Dave_Darling |
Feb 6 2021, 02:37 PM
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#4
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914 Idiot Group: Members Posts: 14,991 Joined: 9-January 03 From: Silicon Valley / Kailua-Kona Member No.: 121 Region Association: Northern California |
The French had some really excellent engineering! But it was very much marching to its own drummer. Plus they tended to make things "interesting" enough that it was difficult to make a profit. Rumor has it that they lost money on every DS built up until the 70s or so, but nobody could tell because their finances were so wacky. But drive a properly-maintained DS or a 2CV on bad roads and then tell me their engineering is crap! SAABs were very cool. I'd like to pick up an old one, probably one of the V4-powered ones because I don't really want to deal with a 2-stroke motor. Again, quirky, but well-engineered. I don't have the time to talk about my experience in aerospace. But I started at NASA in 1987 and was there through about 2010. Some cool stuff, mostly on the first A ("Aeronautics") rather than the S ("Space"). Harriers are cool and I'm good at crashing them... --DD |
914_teener |
Feb 6 2021, 03:45 PM
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#5
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 5,205 Joined: 31-August 08 From: So. Cal Member No.: 9,489 Region Association: Southern California |
The French had some really excellent engineering! But it was very much marching to its own drummer. Plus they tended to make things "interesting" enough that it was difficult to make a profit. Rumor has it that they lost money on every DS built up until the 70s or so, but nobody could tell because their finances were so wacky. But drive a properly-maintained DS or a 2CV on bad roads and then tell me their engineering is crap! SAABs were very cool. I'd like to pick up an old one, probably one of the V4-powered ones because I don't really want to deal with a 2-stroke motor. Again, quirky, but well-engineered. I don't have the time to talk about my experience in aerospace. But I started at NASA in 1987 and was there through about 2010. Some cool stuff, mostly on the first A ("Aeronautics") rather than the S ("Space"). Harriers are cool and I'm good at crashing them... --DD Not being critical of French engineering Dave....it's like art...the Citreon suspension was way ahead of its time. Quirky looking car NOW and lines weren't timeless because..they just weren't. The car busines is a global business now more than ever and Porsche just doesn't build cars to drive on the Autobahn. The Macan was primarily aimed at the Asian market hence the name and capabilities. There is a post in this thread that hit car manufacturing dead on about how each culture and nation takes a different approach and values different things....right or wrong...commercial viabiltiy or not. Take the Gremlin...the Edsel...AMC...even the Delorean and the Pinto. I'd argue that Telsa while a front runner and first with EV's isn't financially viable long term. It's a tough business. All people learn from failures hopefully. |
wonkipop |
Feb 7 2021, 07:58 PM
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#6
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 4,420 Joined: 6-May 20 From: north antarctica Member No.: 24,231 Region Association: NineFourteenerVille |
The French had some really excellent engineering! But it was very much marching to its own drummer. Plus they tended to make things "interesting" enough that it was difficult to make a profit. Rumor has it that they lost money on every DS built up until the 70s or so, but nobody could tell because their finances were so wacky. But drive a properly-maintained DS or a 2CV on bad roads and then tell me their engineering is crap! SAABs were very cool. I'd like to pick up an old one, probably one of the V4-powered ones because I don't really want to deal with a 2-stroke motor. Again, quirky, but well-engineered. I don't have the time to talk about my experience in aerospace. But I started at NASA in 1987 and was there through about 2010. Some cool stuff, mostly on the first A ("Aeronautics") rather than the S ("Space"). Harriers are cool and I'm good at crashing them... --DD Not being critical of French engineering Dave....it's like art...the Citreon suspension was way ahead of its time. Quirky looking car NOW and lines weren't timeless because..they just weren't. The car busines is a global business now more than ever and Porsche just doesn't build cars to drive on the Autobahn. The Macan was primarily aimed at the Asian market hence the name and capabilities. There is a post in this thread that hit car manufacturing dead on about how each culture and nation takes a different approach and values different things....right or wrong...commercial viabiltiy or not. Take the Gremlin...the Edsel...AMC...even the Delorean and the Pinto. I'd argue that Telsa while a front runner and first with EV's isn't financially viable long term. It's a tough business. All people learn from failures hopefully. a lot of french engineering is conventional - despite the reputation for kookiness. eg puegeot and renault. the renault 16 was a kind of citroen without the complications of the hydraulic systems. even the "normal" french suspension systems are very comfortable due to long initial spring travel. but then they stiffen up. they like to lean into corners (a lot) but handle suprisingly well once you convince yourself its not going to tip over and roll. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) the aussie fords though now extinct will still bring a big grin to your face when you see one. especially the hi-po GT sedans. i think they were still styled in the US studios with aussie adjustment/input until the range introduced in the late 70s. the cars were what is referred to as compact or mid size in the usa. in the 60s they did build galaxies and impalas here in knock down kit form and right hand drive. they had a market here amongst the crowd who refused to drive german (mercedes) due to WW2 memories or english (rollers, bentleys etc) - also WW2 memories (betrayal of the pacific colonies defence). so it was a statement to drive a galaxy or impala which were marketed as luxury. if you hit a kangaroo in a galaxie or impala you could keep on driving 9 times out of 10. |
914_teener |
Feb 7 2021, 08:30 PM
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#7
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 5,205 Joined: 31-August 08 From: So. Cal Member No.: 9,489 Region Association: Southern California |
The French had some really excellent engineering! But it was very much marching to its own drummer. Plus they tended to make things "interesting" enough that it was difficult to make a profit. Rumor has it that they lost money on every DS built up until the 70s or so, but nobody could tell because their finances were so wacky. But drive a properly-maintained DS or a 2CV on bad roads and then tell me their engineering is crap! SAABs were very cool. I'd like to pick up an old one, probably one of the V4-powered ones because I don't really want to deal with a 2-stroke motor. Again, quirky, but well-engineered. I don't have the time to talk about my experience in aerospace. But I started at NASA in 1987 and was there through about 2010. Some cool stuff, mostly on the first A ("Aeronautics") rather than the S ("Space"). Harriers are cool and I'm good at crashing them... --DD Not being critical of French engineering Dave....it's like art...the Citreon suspension was way ahead of its time. Quirky looking car NOW and lines weren't timeless because..they just weren't. The car busines is a global business now more than ever and Porsche just doesn't build cars to drive on the Autobahn. The Macan was primarily aimed at the Asian market hence the name and capabilities. There is a post in this thread that hit car manufacturing dead on about how each culture and nation takes a different approach and values different things....right or wrong...commercial viabiltiy or not. Take the Gremlin...the Edsel...AMC...even the Delorean and the Pinto. I'd argue that Telsa while a front runner and first with EV's isn't financially viable long term. It's a tough business. All people learn from failures hopefully. a lot of french engineering is conventional - despite the reputation for kookiness. eg puegeot and renault. the renault 16 was a kind of citroen without the complications of the hydraulic systems. even the "normal" french suspension systems are very comfortable due to long initial spring travel. but then they stiffen up. they like to lean into corners (a lot) but handle suprisingly well once you convince yourself its not going to tip over and roll. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) the aussie fords though now extinct will still bring a big grin to your face when you see one. especially the hi-po GT sedans. i think they were still styled in the US studios with aussie adjustment/input until the range introduced in the late 70s. the cars were what is referred to as compact or mid size in the usa. in the 60s they did build galaxies and impalas here in knock down kit form and right hand drive. they had a market here amongst the crowd who refused to drive german (mercedes) due to WW2 memories or english (rollers, bentleys etc) - also WW2 memories (betrayal of the pacific colonies defence). so it was a statement to drive a galaxy or impala which were marketed as luxury. if you hit a kangaroo in a galaxie or impala you could keep on driving 9 times out of 10. Great post. Someday hopefully soon....a trip down under is on the list. |
wonkipop |
Feb 8 2021, 02:26 AM
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#8
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 4,420 Joined: 6-May 20 From: north antarctica Member No.: 24,231 Region Association: NineFourteenerVille |
[/quote] Great post. Someday hopefully soon....a trip down under is on the list. [/quote] it used to be the other way around when i was growing up in the 60s/70s/80s. a trip to usa or a work stay there (very hard to do, green card etc) was on the list for some aussies. not all, just some. the rest worshipped limey land and were plain terrified of the usa. i have always been interested in - in engineering terms - was just how close gm got to licking the problems with the rotary engine, before they abandoned it. i think, alongside mazda they would have produced an engine that far outlived the fragile nsu (and later with citroen under the co-motor partnership) units. it was always a choice between emissions or fuel consumption with a rotary. you could never win. i spent most of last year during lockdown watching a citroen bi-rotor get sorted. got a few rides in the passenger seat. the mechanic who played the major role in recommissioning my 914 was trying to get the bi-rotor to run properly again. suspect and difficult carburettors. i have driven an nsu ro80 and its an amazing car. the engine in both is the size of a very small beer keg, yet it has a power and torque curve almost identical to the original engine in the 914/6. but it is way smoother. far as engineering goes, i rate the citroen gs birotor and the nsu ro 80 as up there. except for the tip seals in the engines. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stromberg.gif) you can make them last, but you have to be gentle with the cars - its improbable as a realistic car. but - the nsu is easily as comfortable as a citroen ds. america, like japan could have made it work. they know their metals even better than germans because they have a more practical attitude. if they decided to can it, you know it should be canned. whatever the sentiment. who landed on the moon first? muricans, with some help (or helpful hinderance?) from the germans. a saturn V stage i motor. thats engineering. i've stood under one of those in texas and i was floored. |
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