O2 Sensor, what to buy? Options

[bbrock]

First, apologies because I know this has been covered somewhere but both local and Google search have failed me.

I'm heading to uncharted waters. All I know about O2 sensors are they are handy for measure A/F for tuning carbs and where to mount the bung. I have no clue about what is a good affordable sensor to buy for tuning a set of 40IDF Webers for a 2.0L engine. Don't even know whether wide band or narrow band is best. Just clueless really. Help Please!

[bbrock]

Thanks all! This is fabulous info that gave me what I needed to figure this out.

My application is exactly as Mark describes - a one-and-done operation to set up the carbs. I'm not looking for any permanent monitoring. In fact, I'll be installing the bung in a Bursch muffler and then swap that muffler for @mb911 's quiet muffler once the carbs are dialed in. I would think a rental kit as Mark describes would be very appealing for guys like me. In my case, a local member ( @dr.tim ) has graciously offered to bring his jetting kit and walk me through the process so I'll only need to replace what we use. I also have a synch snail so that leaves me with the O2 sensor. Just like Mark says, it will probably get used once and then sit in a box as a fairly expensive bit of unused kit.

The next best option to a rental is a relatively inexpensive kit.

The Spartan 2 kit by 14point7 previously linked looks like a great option at $125 including the sensor. The also have a gauge for $50 so at $175 + a bung and maybe some additional cable, I'd be set. Although I enjoy tinkering with Arduino on various projects, I think it will be hard to beat that gauge on price to have something rugged enough to be useful.

The one I think I'll go for though is the INNOVATE LC-2: Complete Lambda Cable Kit (8 ft.) For $189 it's a complete kit including 1" bung. What I like is that the controller provides serial outputs to connect to my computer for monitoring and data logging. Should work great for temporary cable routing to my laptop in the passenger seat. It also won't be the worst thing to have this in the toolkit because some day I may look at converting to modern EFI where it might find a permanent home.

Thanks all (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[914Toy]

Thanks all! This is fabulous info that gave me what I needed to figure this out.

My application is exactly as Mark describes - a one-and-done operation to set up the carbs. I'm not looking for any permanent monitoring. In fact, I'll be installing the bung in a Bursch muffler and then swap that muffler for @mb911 's quiet muffler once the carbs are dialed in. I would think a rental kit as Mark describes would be very appealing for guys like me. In my case, a local member ( @dr.tim ) has graciously offered to bring his jetting kit and walk me through the process so I'll only need to replace what we use. I also have a synch snail so that leaves me with the O2 sensor. Just like Mark says, it will probably get used once and then sit in a box as a fairly expensive bit of unused kit.

The next best option to a rental is a relatively inexpensive kit.

The Spartan 2 kit by 14point7 previously linked looks like a great option at $125 including the sensor. The also have a gauge for $50 so at $175 + a bung and maybe some additional cable, I'd be set. Although I enjoy tinkering with Arduino on various projects, I think it will be hard to beat that gauge on price to have something rugged enough to be useful.

The one I think I'll go for though is the INNOVATE LC-2: Complete Lambda Cable Kit (8 ft.) For $189 it's a complete kit including 1" bung. What I like is that the controller provides serial outputs to connect to my computer for monitoring and data logging. Should work great for temporary cable routing to my laptop in the passenger seat. It also won't be the worst thing to have this in the toolkit because some day I may look at converting to modern EFI where it might find a permanent home.

Thanks all (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

Good compromise, but a permanent installation will assist you trouble shooting fuel and or ignition issues.

[bbrock]

Good compromise, but a permanent installation will assist you trouble shooting fuel and or ignition issues.

Good point and I've considered this. If I decide I want longer term monitoring/trouble shooting capabilities, I'd probably build an Arduino based solution with Bluetooth to a phone. I've done this for other (non car related projects) and it works well. I'm keeping my interior stock, so as much as I'd like to add a few gauges, I won't, but am seriously thinking of adding virtual gauges (CHT is at the top of the list) via BT and smart phone.

The other issues is my exhaust. Ben's mufflers don't have a great spot for installing a bung so that would mean monitoring just one head or even one cylinder if I install it in an HE (I assume that's were a dual sensor setup shines?). I have a spare Bursch that I can install the bung in the collector pipe which seems ideal, but it isn't the muffler I will run with permanently. I know swapping mufflers could affect the A/F a little but from what I've been told, not enough to make much difference.

Compromise is a good word here. I need to learn more about what a WB sensor can tell over the long term and also trade-offs to the limited sensor placement options.

[mb911]

Good compromise, but a permanent installation will assist you trouble shooting fuel and or ignition issues.

Good point and I've considered this. If I decide I want longer term monitoring/trouble shooting capabilities, I'd probably build an Arduino based solution with Bluetooth to a phone. I've done this for other (non car related projects) and it works well. I'm keeping my interior stock, so as much as I'd like to add a few gauges, I won't, but am seriously thinking of adding virtual gauges (CHT is at the top of the list) via BT and smart phone.

The other issues is my exhaust. Ben's mufflers don't have a great spot for installing a bung so that would mean monitoring just one head or even one cylinder if I install it in an HE (I assume that's were a dual sensor setup shines?). I have a spare Bursch that I can install the bung in the collector pipe which seems ideal, but it isn't the muffler I will run with permanently. I know swapping mufflers could affect the A/F a little but from what I've been told, not enough to make much difference.

Compromise is a good word here. I need to learn more about what a WB sensor can tell over the long term and also trade-offs to the limited sensor placement options.

There is a spot for an 02 bung in my mufflers if you really want to it can be done.

[bbrock]

Good compromise, but a permanent installation will assist you trouble shooting fuel and or ignition issues.

Good point and I've considered this. If I decide I want longer term monitoring/trouble shooting capabilities, I'd probably build an Arduino based solution with Bluetooth to a phone. I've done this for other (non car related projects) and it works well. I'm keeping my interior stock, so as much as I'd like to add a few gauges, I won't, but am seriously thinking of adding virtual gauges (CHT is at the top of the list) via BT and smart phone.

The other issues is my exhaust. Ben's mufflers don't have a great spot for installing a bung so that would mean monitoring just one head or even one cylinder if I install it in an HE (I assume that's were a dual sensor setup shines?). I have a spare Bursch that I can install the bung in the collector pipe which seems ideal, but it isn't the muffler I will run with permanently. I know swapping mufflers could affect the A/F a little but from what I've been told, not enough to make much difference.

Compromise is a good word here. I need to learn more about what a WB sensor can tell over the long term and also trade-offs to the limited sensor placement options.

There is a spot for an 02 bung in my mufflers if you really want to it can be done.

Must have missed that on the other thread. I should probably make note of the location in case I need to park a WB permanently in it. Then there is the intimidation factor. I'm pretty sure I can match the quality of the (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stromberg.gif) Bursch welds, but not yours. Might need to take it to a pro to do justice. I don't want to deface that work of art.

As I said though, I'm seriously thinking of moving to a modern EFI on this engine in the future. Two reasons: 1) because of where I live, it would be really nice to have real altitude adjustment in the system 2) an EFI with ITBs would let me keep my cool intake system (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

[Mark Henry]

As I said though, I'm seriously thinking of moving to a modern EFI on this engine in the future. Two reasons: 1) because of where I live, it would be really nice to have real altitude adjustment in the system 2) an EFI with ITBs would let me keep my cool intake system (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

If you have a long duration (carb) cam, EFI and ITB's.... for altitude correction you'll be disappointed. The pizz poor vacuum signal makes you run in AlphaN, which means TPS only, thus your MPS is no longer works so no altitude correction.

One of the reasons why i'm going to try a plenum based intake on my EFI 3.0 /6 intake project.

[bbrock]

As I said though, I'm seriously thinking of moving to a modern EFI on this engine in the future. Two reasons: 1) because of where I live, it would be really nice to have real altitude adjustment in the system 2) an EFI with ITBs would let me keep my cool intake system (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

If you have a long duration (carb) cam, EFI and ITB's.... for altitude correction you'll be disappointed. The pizz poor vacuum signal makes you run in AlphaN, which means TPS only, thus your MPS is no longer works so no altitude correction.

One of the reasons why i'm going to try a plenum based intake on my EFI 3.0 /6 intake project.

Which is why I'm putting carbs on now. I have an Elgin 6408-18 cam with 256 duration. I believe that is slightly longer than stock but not too crazy. Elgin's note for this cam says, "Wide Torque Band. A little rough with FI." I'm completely ignorant about acceptable limits for modern EFI or even the old D-Jet for that matter. At this point, going to EFI is just an interest. The plan is to run these carbs for a few years and see how I like them. Then I can decide whether I want to open a new can of worms to upgrade the fuel system either going back to stock FI or a modern version. Obviously a system that would work with this cam would be a plus, but I have a lot of time to research and ponder before I get anywhere close to serious. It sure would be nice to be able to zip between 10K and 3K feet and even pop over to Seattle without having to worry about fuel mixtures though.

[jd74914]

As I said though, I'm seriously thinking of moving to a modern EFI on this engine in the future. Two reasons: 1) because of where I live, it would be really nice to have real altitude adjustment in the system 2) an EFI with ITBs would let me keep my cool intake system (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

If you have a long duration (carb) cam, EFI and ITB's.... for altitude correction you'll be disappointed. The pizz poor vacuum signal makes you run in AlphaN, which means TPS only, thus your MPS is no longer works so no altitude correction.

One of the reasons why i'm going to try a plenum based intake on my EFI 3.0 /6 intake project.

Which is why I'm putting carbs on now. I have an Elgin 6408-18 cam with 256 duration. I believe that is slightly longer than stock but not too crazy. Elgin's note for this cam says, "Wide Torque Band. A little rough with FI." I'm completely ignorant about acceptable limits for modern EFI or even the old D-Jet for that matter. At this point, going to EFI is just an interest. The plan is to run these carbs for a few years and see how I like them. Then I can decide whether I want to open a new can of worms to upgrade the fuel system either going back to stock FI or a modern version. Obviously a system that would work with this cam would be a plus, but I have a lot of time to research and ponder before I get anywhere close to serious. It sure would be nice to be able to zip between 10K and 3K feet and even pop over to Seattle without having to worry about fuel mixtures though.

MAP-only EFI with key-on barometric is kinda old school. Altitude correction would be just fine provided you have a dedicated barometric pressure sensor. Then it's just a simple PV=nRT correction...could even keep the same single altitude alpha-N tune and just have a compensation table.