Crayford rhd 914, Genuine car? Options

[pep1]

Hi - JD Classics in the UK have for sale a rhd 914 that they say is a genuine Crayford conversion. Registration number is NRX 538K. The car started life in the US and then was exported to Australia (doesn't say when) where the conversion was done. JD say that it is one of only 9 cars that were converted by Crayford. From the research I have managed to do it sounds like this cannot be true. I have asked for some proof of their claim but they have gone quiet. Could this car however have been converted under licence using genuine Crayford parts or is it more likely to be a conversion just done by some garage in Australia as I understand quite a few cars were converted there in this way.

[dr914@autoatlanta.com]

NO right hand drive 914 is genuine!

[porschetub]

NO right hand drive 914 is genuine!

Relax George no one said these were genuine but just replys here on if the car is legit as a Crayford conversion which I strongly don't think it is as mentioned the cars would have been direct from Porsche and converted from that point in the UK.
I understand they were pretty well done but I think wonkipop would know better as he has checked them out .
To me they are real special due to numbers converted and a real part of 914 history.

[wonkipop]

NO right hand drive 914 is genuine!

Relax George no one said these were genuine but just replys here on if the car is legit as a Crayford conversion which I strongly don't think it is as mentioned the cars would have been direct from Porsche and converted from that point in the UK.
I understand they were pretty well done but I think wonkipop would know better as he has checked them out .
To me they are real special due to numbers converted and a real part of 914 history.

thanks @porschetub
given you are a kiwi you have perspective on this and understand the post british empire period of our poor old antipodean countries and the legacy of right hand drive bureaucracy.

f'n oath the crayfords were legit.
part of their ambitious (but overoptimistic?) business plans back then was to service the colonies trapped in right hand drive dogma. but it never took off.
it was the only way you were going to get a 914 into australia back in the 70s when the car was new. the distributor abandoned his plans by 1972 and he was definitely contemplating either a small production order of factory converted 914s or looking into "doing a crayfords" himself. he did at least one in his own workshops. i know one of the guys who did that one. he still alive. but mr. hamilton was only interested in doing it with the 6.
when porsche killed off the 6 that was the end of that idea.
sure the factory didn't offer the warranty for crayfords but a select group of uk dealers were supplying the cars brand new to order from a customer and offering the conversion. the dealer was backing it. and if porsche thought it was out of bounds they would have closed the door hard on it. they didn't. if anything it must have been an embarrassment for porsche not to be able to offer a rhd 914 to an original and valued distributor like hamilton. (thanks VW because 100 to 1 thats who kyboshed a rhd 914 - peanut numbers for VW the corporate giant).

as i understand it the aus porsche distributor happily serviced the few cars that were here. i've got a copy of the letter dated 1979 that proves it.

the white crayfords car that was featured in the magazine article and still exists was owned for almost a decade by the VW dealer in orange nsw. i believe he purchased it off the private importer who had returned to australia with it. that particular car has become an urban legend. it still exists and is stashed away in sydney somewhere.

and george may be eating his words when it comes to there never was a right hand drive 914 from the factory. have to see if the museum curator can dig up the story from half a century ago. alan hamilton had all sorts of stuff stashed from his time and his father's time as the australian distributor. he cut a deal with export of porsches before even max hoffman i believe. the first two right hand drive 356s ever made came here to australia. special order for hamiltons to start the whole enterprise.

i understand there are a couple of 914/6 stashed away in NZ @porschetub that have been there a long time too. kiwis. total petrol heads. have my respect. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

my old mate brian who had the green crayfords car and the maybe one and only "factory" rhd 914/6 before he sadly passed away (a little too young too when he went) had photos of the crayfords car that ended up in macau (hongkong). the photos dated from the early 80s.
that one was a wreck even by that time. the customers were out there in the colonies, just wasn't enough of them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

hell i even remember going down to hamiltons to see if i could get carpet stock to make right hand drive carpets for my car. a phone call was made and i believe hamilton directed his spare parts man to see if they could find me raw carpet stock from the factory warehouse in germany. i got the last 7m of the roll left. hamilton himself was quite interested in the 914 as a car and had a bit of a soft spot for them. why he stashed away one of the demonstrators for 20 years? --- and when he let it go it was only to the right person.


and you are right @porschetub - the crayfords conversion is really well done. top shelf. the way they screwed around with the pedal cluster, most people would not understand it. i did. copied it exactly (or as close as our insecting engineer would allow). boy does it make a difference. you can't just plonk 911 right hand drive pedal cluster in. its not quite right if you do.

i'm promised a look at the red 6 again when i can hook up. what i want to do is take a real close look at the pedal cluster in that one. its been almost 20 years since i have seen that car last.

[porschetub]

NO right hand drive 914 is genuine!

Relax George no one said these were genuine but just replys here on if the car is legit as a Crayford conversion which I strongly don't think it is as mentioned the cars would have been direct from Porsche and converted from that point in the UK.
I understand they were pretty well done but I think wonkipop would know better as he has checked them out .
To me they are real special due to numbers converted and a real part of 914 history.

thanks @porschetub
given you are a kiwi you have perspective on this and understand the post british empire period of our poor old antipodean countries and the legacy of right hand drive bureaucracy.

f'n oath the crayfords were legit.
part of their ambitious (but overoptimistic?) business plans back then was to service the colonies trapped in right hand drive dogma. but it never took off.
it was the only way you were going to get a 914 into australia back in the 70s when the car was new. the distributor abandoned his plans by 1972 and he was definitely contemplating either a small production order of factory converted 914s or looking into "doing a crayfords" himself. he did at least one in his own workshops. i know one of the guys who did that one. he still alive. but mr. hamilton was only interested in doing it with the 6.
when porsche killed off the 6 that was the end of that idea.
sure the factory didn't offer the warranty for crayfords but a select group of uk dealers were supplying the cars brand new to order from a customer and offering the conversion. the dealer was backing it. and if porsche thought it was out of bounds they would have closed the door hard on it. they didn't. if anything it must have been an embarrassment for porsche not to be able to offer a rhd 914 to an original and valued distributor like hamilton. (thanks VW because 100 to 1 thats who kyboshed a rhd 914 - peanut numbers for VW the corporate giant).

as i understand it the aus porsche distributor happily serviced the few cars that were here. i've got a copy of the letter dated 1979 that proves it.

the white crayfords car that was featured in the magazine article and still exists was owned for almost a decade by the VW dealer in orange nsw. i believe he purchased it off the private importer who had returned to australia with it. that particular car has become an urban legend. it still exists and is stashed away in sydney somewhere.

and george may be eating his words when it comes to there never was a right hand drive 914 from the factory. have to see if the museum curator can dig up the story from half a century ago. alan hamilton had all sorts of stuff stashed from his time and his father's time as the australian distributor. he cut a deal with export of porsches before even max hoffman i believe. the first two right hand drive 356s ever made came here to australia. special order for hamiltons to start the whole enterprise.

i understand there are a couple of 914/6 stashed away in NZ @porschetub that have been there a long time too. kiwis. total petrol heads. have my respect. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

my old mate brian who had the green crayfords car and the maybe one and only "factory" rhd 914/6 before he sadly passed away (a little too young too when he went) had photos of the crayfords car that ended up in macau (hongkong). the photos dated from the early 80s.
that one was a wreck even by that time. the customers were out there in the colonies, just wasn't enough of them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

hell i even remember going down to hamiltons to see if i could get carpet stock to make right hand drive carpets for my car. a phone call was made and i believe hamilton directed his spare parts man to see if they could find me raw carpet stock from the factory warehouse in germany. i got the last 7m of the roll left. hamilton himself was quite interested in the 914 as a car and had a bit of a soft spot for them. why he stashed away one of the demonstrators for 20 years? --- and when he let it go it was only to the right person.


and you are right @porschetub - the crayfords conversion is really well done. top shelf. the way they screwed around with the pedal cluster, most people would not understand it. i did. copied it exactly (or as close as our insecting engineer would allow). boy does it make a difference. you can't just plonk 911 right hand drive pedal cluster in. its not quite right if you do.

i'm promised a look at the red 6 again when i can hook up. what i want to do is take a real close look at the pedal cluster in that one. its been almost 20 years since i have seen that car last.

Interesting info thanks,remember when I lived Perth in the 80's ,I used to go to Waneroo Part raceway a lot,best meeting was for classics and Hamiton crew turned up with the biggest transporter anyone had ever seen ,bloody huge,inside was 2 Porsche 935's ,spare engines,gearboxs etc .
Impressive cars on the track,the crowd went nuts when they came down the hill on to the main straight,seem to remember that was the only part of the track they could crank up the boost.
Pretty sure there was a guy from Ireland on here that had a RHD car he was convertioning to a "six",it was very rusty but don't know if it was a Crayford conversion as it was a while back and he hasn't posted since.
Didn't know there 2 914/6's in NZ,I do know of one that the owner has had for many years,member on here username neven owns it ,the guy I bought my car off had this car in storage for the owner and various parts were copied and exact dimensions taken during that time.
cheers.

[wonkipop]

NO right hand drive 914 is genuine!

Relax George no one said these were genuine but just replys here on if the car is legit as a Crayford conversion which I strongly don't think it is as mentioned the cars would have been direct from Porsche and converted from that point in the UK.
I understand they were pretty well done but I think wonkipop would know better as he has checked them out .
To me they are real special due to numbers converted and a real part of 914 history.

thanks @porschetub
given you are a kiwi you have perspective on this and understand the post british empire period of our poor old antipodean countries and the legacy of right hand drive bureaucracy.

f'n oath the crayfords were legit.
part of their ambitious (but overoptimistic?) business plans back then was to service the colonies trapped in right hand drive dogma. but it never took off.
it was the only way you were going to get a 914 into australia back in the 70s when the car was new. the distributor abandoned his plans by 1972 and he was definitely contemplating either a small production order of factory converted 914s or looking into "doing a crayfords" himself. he did at least one in his own workshops. i know one of the guys who did that one. he still alive. but mr. hamilton was only interested in doing it with the 6.
when porsche killed off the 6 that was the end of that idea.
sure the factory didn't offer the warranty for crayfords but a select group of uk dealers were supplying the cars brand new to order from a customer and offering the conversion. the dealer was backing it. and if porsche thought it was out of bounds they would have closed the door hard on it. they didn't. if anything it must have been an embarrassment for porsche not to be able to offer a rhd 914 to an original and valued distributor like hamilton. (thanks VW because 100 to 1 thats who kyboshed a rhd 914 - peanut numbers for VW the corporate giant).

as i understand it the aus porsche distributor happily serviced the few cars that were here. i've got a copy of the letter dated 1979 that proves it.

the white crayfords car that was featured in the magazine article and still exists was owned for almost a decade by the VW dealer in orange nsw. i believe he purchased it off the private importer who had returned to australia with it. that particular car has become an urban legend. it still exists and is stashed away in sydney somewhere.

and george may be eating his words when it comes to there never was a right hand drive 914 from the factory. have to see if the museum curator can dig up the story from half a century ago. alan hamilton had all sorts of stuff stashed from his time and his father's time as the australian distributor. he cut a deal with export of porsches before even max hoffman i believe. the first two right hand drive 356s ever made came here to australia. special order for hamiltons to start the whole enterprise.

i understand there are a couple of 914/6 stashed away in NZ @porschetub that have been there a long time too. kiwis. total petrol heads. have my respect. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

my old mate brian who had the green crayfords car and the maybe one and only "factory" rhd 914/6 before he sadly passed away (a little too young too when he went) had photos of the crayfords car that ended up in macau (hongkong). the photos dated from the early 80s.
that one was a wreck even by that time. the customers were out there in the colonies, just wasn't enough of them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

hell i even remember going down to hamiltons to see if i could get carpet stock to make right hand drive carpets for my car. a phone call was made and i believe hamilton directed his spare parts man to see if they could find me raw carpet stock from the factory warehouse in germany. i got the last 7m of the roll left. hamilton himself was quite interested in the 914 as a car and had a bit of a soft spot for them. why he stashed away one of the demonstrators for 20 years? --- and when he let it go it was only to the right person.


and you are right @porschetub - the crayfords conversion is really well done. top shelf. the way they screwed around with the pedal cluster, most people would not understand it. i did. copied it exactly (or as close as our insecting engineer would allow). boy does it make a difference. you can't just plonk 911 right hand drive pedal cluster in. its not quite right if you do.

i'm promised a look at the red 6 again when i can hook up. what i want to do is take a real close look at the pedal cluster in that one. its been almost 20 years since i have seen that car last.

Interesting info thanks,remember when I lived Perth in the 80's ,I used to go to Waneroo Part raceway a lot,best meeting was for classics and Hamiton crew turned up with the biggest transporter anyone had ever seen ,bloody huge,inside was 2 Porsche 935's ,spare engines,gearboxs etc .
Impressive cars on the track,the crowd went nuts when they came down the hill on to the main straight,seem to remember that was the only part of the track they could crank up the boost.
Pretty sure there was a guy from Ireland on here that had a RHD car he was convertioning to a "six",it was very rusty but don't know if it was a Crayford conversion as it was a while back and he hasn't posted since.
Didn't know there 2 914/6's in NZ,I do know of one that the owner has had for many years,member on here username neven owns it ,the guy I bought my car off had this car in storage for the owner and various parts were copied and exact dimensions taken during that time.
cheers.

yes there is no way you could consider those two initial 6s in australia as non legit.
george is way off track with his assertion.

both cars come in via the distributor with full support of factory as assessment cars.

its taken a bit of detective work (and a member here from australia has fully researched one of those cars which is now in sydney - for a long long time that car had disappeared and no one had taken a close look at it). the other car is still here in melbourne.
it was always thought, or it had come to be thought they were both converted here and both the same way. the story is very different. the two conversions are completely different. and it seems very very very likely that one was certainly converted before it arrived in australia. leaves only japan enroute. and thats unlikely. it would appear that car was done at the factory and sent to australia via japan to serve as an assessment and demonstrator car. the other one did come here left hand drive, remained that way for a period of time (year to a couple of years) and then was converted in the distributor workshop. during that time the cars were in the ownership of the distributor and were not owned by members of the public. the whole project was legit, it was not some backyard exercise or hack job as i have heard converted cars described (an ungenerous and inaccurate summation in my view).

as far as i am concerned both of those sixes are legit sixes which have unique and historically significant histories. comparable to significant race cars for instance.

and little needs to be said in defence of the two crayfords cars in australia, or any crayfords cars for that matter. these were cars that were sold brand spanking new from the UK dealers in an arrangment to facilitate strictly right hand drive countries with no provision for allowing a left hand drive car to be road registered.

the subsequent private import and conversion activity in australia is entirely unrelated.
it occurs at least 10 years after the last 914 was manufactured when the cars were second hand. and it occurs because economically viable examples could be purchased on the west coast of the USA and shipped to australia as viable purchases for owners who always wanted 914s. the generation of guys who did that are almost entirely dead these days. i was unique. one of the youngest guys in that circle. i was about 30 years old.
all the other guys i knew as a result of the 914 who did the conversion thing in the 90s were either retired or about to retire. i don't think any of them are alive anymore.
or if they are they are very old. those cars are now out there and being sold and owned by a new generation. anyway its entirely separate from the crayfords project and crayfords era.

[Dave_Darling]

... it seems very very very likely that one was certainly converted before it arrived in australia. leaves only japan enroute. and thats unlikely.

Why do you feel that's unlikely? You said the car came to Oz by way of Japan...

Years ago I worked on a 79 Nissan Fairlady Z. It was a 280Z in right hand drive... People would do double takes when they see no one in the driver's seat at 70 mph on the freeway.

A (now-former) co-worker of mine had a Japanese-market 240Z. He and another co-worker were taking it up go go skiing one day. He was just zipping along in the right lane, and the other co-worker was obviously asleep in the passenger's seat. Some little old lady passed them, saw someone sleeping in the left seat and .... Apparently her eyes got THIIIIIIIIS BIG and she put her foot down and sped off.

--DD

[wonkipop]

... it seems very very very likely that one was certainly converted before it arrived in australia. leaves only japan enroute. and thats unlikely.

Why do you feel that's unlikely? You said the car came to Oz by way of Japan...

Years ago I worked on a 79 Nissan Fairlady Z. It was a 280Z in right hand drive... People would do double takes when they see no one in the driver's seat at 70 mph on the freeway.

A (now-former) co-worker of mine had a Japanese-market 240Z. He and another co-worker were taking it up go go skiing one day. He was just zipping along in the right lane, and the other co-worker was obviously asleep in the passenger's seat. Some little old lady passed them, saw someone sleeping in the left seat and .... Apparently her eyes got THIIIIIIIIS BIG and she put her foot down and sped off.

--DD

..........and - you have lined up to quotes as if to make a point.

a 240z is right hand drive from the factory.
just like every car in oz.

so...... i guess you mean that japan has an advanced or had an advanced conversion cottage industry doing niche right hand drive conversions. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif)

i'll research it and get back to you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif)


and out of respect.
google norman hamilton.
and get back to me.

its not often i feel like stepping up to a yank, being an aussie and loving you guys.
but...........check it.
the destination of the car was aus. japan was merely a transit point.

[Dave_Darling]

..........and - you have lined up to quotes as if to make a point.

No, it was just to avoid posting twice in a row. The Z story is just another amusing RHD in the US story.

and out of respect.
google [/u]norman hamilton.
and get back to me.

Too many different results, none of which appear to have any bearing on 914s.
- Director of Comfy Living
- Owner, BFR8
- US Representative from Virginia
- Moderator of the Presbyterian Church in Ireland

.... and many more.

the destination of the car was aus. japan was merely a transit point.

Japan is RHD. Could the conversion have been done there? I know that they have LHD 914s there currently, but I don't see why that makes it "unlikely" that the conversion could have been done in Japan...

--DD

[wonkipop]

..........and - you have lined up to quotes as if to make a point.

No, it was just to avoid posting twice in a row. The Z story is just another amusing RHD in the US story.

and out of respect.
google [/u]norman hamilton.
and get back to me.

Too many different results, none of which appear to have any bearing on 914s.
- Director of Comfy Living
- Owner, BFR8
- US Representative from Virginia
- Moderator of the Presbyterian Church in Ireland

.... and many more.

the destination of the car was aus. japan was merely a transit point.

Japan is RHD. Could the conversion have been done there? I know that they have LHD 914s there currently, but I don't see why that makes it "unlikely" that the conversion could have been done in Japan...

--DD

japs didn't need them to be right hand drive to be road registered.
all the 914s were sold left hand drive there.
there really is no conversion industry in japan.
its kind of a perverse status symbol thing to drive a left hand drive car.
plus speed limits are very low in most of japan so its not really unnerving or difficult to drive left hand drive.
but - key point - the light set up was right hand drive and all the indicators, running lights etc were identical to australia (and UK).
for some reason the conventions on J cars from the get go was the same as the UK standards between WW1 and WW2.

the peculiar thing about australia and other english colonial countries in south east asia was the prohibition on left hand drive vehicles. i believe it was the same in singapore, malaysia and hong kong. in all the english territories. i'm not so sure about NZ, think it was more relaxed as it relied more on less on fully importing cars so it was a bit freer.

its hard to know exactly why australia was so rigid about this until relatively recently but i suspect it dates back to the 1950s and 60s when there was no speed limit on country roads. unlimited speeds. but roads were narrow and two way undivided. i can tell you its pretty unnerving to drive at very high speed on narrow australian country roads left hand drive. and probably not really safe.

the key factor in the question of where the right hand drive 6 originated from lies with the status of the australian distributor with porsche themselves.
as i said google norman hamilton. he (and his son alan) enjoyed a favoured relationship. they were at the factory door before anyone else, even max hoffman.
the first right hand drive 356s were built for australia, not the UK. there were two of them. they are still here. same goes for the 911s. the first pre production rhd 911 came to australia. before the production lines even swung into full scale output.
i think the second of those was sent to the UK.

if anyone was exploring a right hand drive 914 it was alan hamilton and the factory would have been assisting.

i have not seen the second of the 914/6s that originally came here. its been in sydney since the 70s and i was always told it had been written off. its been rebuilt and restored and i have seen photos of it. that was converted here and it was done later than the other one. for a while it was left in left hand drive form and sat in the showroom in melbourne. after a couple of years it was switched over in the distributors workshop.
all done locally.

but the car that is still here in mebourne is completely different.
these days it does not look like it did back in the 70s/80s and early 90s.
Brian Clerihan who owned if after the distributor sold if from his collection in the early 90s redid the interior to do it "properly".
he installed a 73 interior with backpad and corrected the hand brake.
when he picked it up from the distributor in the early 90s it looked completely different.
356 centre pull hand brake under dash. little racing buckets, which when i think back were probably GT seats. no backpad. just fuzz carpet. similar to a GT. had a hand stitched dash. and some other very unusual features. not least the 4 speed box.

the reason for coming via japan was simple. it was the same reason the other car that came in left hand drive came in via the rome porsche dealer. it was to qualify them as second hand cars. back then all the importers had severe restrictions on the numbers of new cars they could sell in any year. the local car industry which manufactured here was very protected. if a hamilton had bought the assessment 914s as new cars it was 2 new 911s less on his import quotas. since neither car was originally intended to be sold to customers but were for assessment the importation was done as "used" cars.

we had a very developed car conversion industry in the 1950s and 1960s as both Ford and Holden (GM) used to bring in the big USA cars for their top of the line models.
Fairlanes, LTDs, Impalas, Pontiacs as LHD cars in many cases and then convert them under contract to small workshops. they were sold new in the showrooms of the Ford and Holden dealers as top of the model range cars.

conversion was a serious industry in australia and very few other places in the world.

thats why australians didn't hesitate to convert a 914 in the 80s and 90s.
mind you there were a lot more LHD MGBs done here at that time than 914s.
and also fiat 124 spiders. not to mention quite a few 930 turbos and general run of the mill 70s 911s. plenty of them still around now. easy to spot due to the indicator/marker lights in the bumpers. the 911 is not a difficult conversion to do.

its still on the go now with the end of australian car manufacture.
all the dodge RAMs come in LHD and are converted here.
officially with a factory warranty.
you cannot tell them apart from the LHD originals.
they can't sell enough of them at the moment. walking out the door.

the japanese just don't this - period.
they have never needed to.

i am serious about googling the hamiltons. father and son.
i know america likes to think it was #1 with porsche as a market.
and it was. in terms of a market.
but australia was in front.
the story is well known and documented in books, but you can also find details of the account on the internet if you look around.