Idle adjustment question, take two, Idles high or slowly stalls Options

[BillC]

The old thread asking this question got too long and disjointed, so I figured it would be best to start again with all the data stated concisely and in one post.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The problem: I can't get my car to idle reliably under 1500-1600 RPM. If I adjust the idle bleed screw to lower the RPM, the engine will slow down and stall.

The car:

• 1973 2.0
• Engine was rebuilt a few hundred miles before I bought it, and I've put less than 100 miles on it since then.
• Cam is unknown. I called the shop that did the rebuild, but they don't remember what cam they put in it. They thought it might be a WebCam, but I called WebCam and they don't have any records for this shop buying a cam around that time.
• Factory D-Jet fuel injection. Correct ECU, MPS, CHT and ballast resistor. New FJ67 fuel injectors. New fuel pump and fresh gas. Fuel pressure is 29 psi.
• MPS holds vacuum all day, no problem.
• All vacuum hoses and fittings have been replaced with new ones.
• Freshly rebuilt throttle body, and TPS adjusted properly. New circuit board installed in TPS.
• New 123Ignition distributor, currently set to setting "1", which is listed in the manual as being the correct position for this car without vacuum retard.
• Valve lash adjusted to .006" intake and .008" exhaust while sitting on engine stand, shortly before the engine was reinstalled in the car (so less than 100 miles ago).
• The car drives well at all RPMs and throttle positions, except idle. However, drivability is a little better on setting "A" with vacuum retard connected than it is on "1", but leaving it on "1" for testing (without vacuum involved in timing, it's one less variable).

The symptoms:

• At 1500 RPM, the car idles about 11-12" vacuum and 7 degrees advance.
• At 1100 RPM, car idles at 7" vacuum and 4 degrees advance.
• At 850 RPM, car idles at 3-5" vacuum and 1 degree advance, shortly before it stalls.
• Car idles noticeably rich below 1200 RPM and is very rich at 900 (by smell).
• If the car has been running less than 20 minutes, it will idle (poorly, but stays running) under 1100 RPM. However, after being driven/running more than 25 minutes, it just wants to slow down and die unless idle speed is kept above 1500-1600 RPM.

Diagnosis work:

• I hooked up a smoke machine and verified there are no vacuum leaks.
• I can make the engine stall by turning the idle bleed screw in.
• Performed a leakdown test with the engine completely warmed up by a 30 minute drive. Leakdown was less than 5% on all cylinders.
• If I connect a MityVac to the MPS and set it to 17" vacuum, the idle smooths out and the exhaust cleans up (doesn't smell rich).
• If I create a vacuum leak by pulling a vacuum hose off the intake manifold, RPM goes up several hundred RPM. Replacing the vacuum hose makes the idle go back to where it was beforehand.
• Timing advance is being measured by adjusting the timing light to put the "0" back in the notch in the fan housing.
• I have a new vacuum gauge, and confirmed that it matches the gauge on the MityVac.
• I put a dial indicator on the #3 cylinder exhaust rocker, and confirmed that this rocker has approximately the same lift as stock (.364" at the valve). Couldn't check any other rockers, since there is no room to put the dial indicator on any of them without dropping the engine.

Current diagnoses/hypotheses:

• Cam not compatible with D-Jet?
• Hidden vacuum leak that only shows up at low RPM?
• Others?

Suggestions?

• Convert to modern fuel injection?
• Rebuild engine with correct cam?
• Convert to carbs? <-- No, not gonna happen
• Go back to a bicycle?

[BillC]

I called Dr. 914, George H., this afternoon, which is something I should have done a long time ago.

After I introduced myself, I started by asking him asking him to describe what happens when you use an incompatible cam with D-Jet, and he described exactly what is happening with my car. He said the car will run great at mid and higher RPMs, but it will not idle. He said at idle, the vacuum goes very low, the mixture gets very rich and then it stalls.

I then described to him what my car is doing, and everything I've done for testing, and his diagnosis was that most likely they put a carburetor cam in the engine. He said I had done all the testing they would have done, and that if the car was at their shop, they would have already pulled the engine and torn it down.

He did give me a couple of suggestions for further testing, such as borrowing a set of carburetors to see if I can get it to idle at 900 RPM. Also some testing on the CHT sensor, which I'll do when I get a chance.

I asked about installing a more-modern fuel injection system, and he actually recommended against that -- he said it would end up being a lot more work and headache. He strongly recommended that I plan on rebuilding the engine with the correct cam, so that may be next winter's project. He said in the near-term, I should just set the idle RPM to 1600 and live with the high idle until I can rebuild the engine.

[JamesM]

He strongly recommended that I plan on rebuilding the engine with the correct cam, so that may be next winter's project. He said in the near-term, I should just set the idle RPM to 1600 and live with the high idle until I can rebuild the engine.

George is correct in that carbs would be "easier" but making cars worse than stock because its easier isn't my thing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Id pull the motor apart before I threw carbs on one, but then I don't have to do stuff like that because I know how to build and tune modern injection systems (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

George isn't alone though, finding a shop/mechanic these days that understands both older air-cooled motors and modern electronics is extremely rare. I only know of a couple other than myself, all west of the Rockies.

Looking to simplify it with a bolt on replacement for d-jet cars but as yours is going to need some tweaking beyond that we should probably discuss how/who is going to get that part done. There is a steep learning curve to it.