Hemmings Sports & Exotic Car, interesting observations on a 914 sale Options

[1970 Neun vierzehn]

In the latest issue of Hemmings Sports & Exotic Car (Nov 2011), they comment on the auction results of a 1974 914 that was sold at the Bonhams' sale.

1974 914, condition:Modified-#3- (#3 is considered average), selling price:$10500.

Comments: " Few people can leave a 914 alone-like a '32 Ford, it's the rare car that's been returned to stock form and, as with any hot rod, your vision and that of a buyer seldom match up well enough to recoup your investment. This car's work included a 2.0-liter Euro engine with a number of mods: exhaust, transmission, suspension, brakes, wheels and interior, including a harness bar visible here. A hole in the side of the engine bay right behind the driver looked like it was made with a shotgun-no idea what that was about. The home paintwork was adequate. The buyer purchased a large amount of work for cheap"

The photo shown depicts a red (or orange) narrow body with body painted rollbar and bumpers. The bumpers do not have the black "tits", the car has fog lights and a crest on the hood. I can't discern the type of wheels that are on the car.

I also do not know if the 2.0 engine they refer to is a /6 or a /4 w/carbs, as they call it a "Euro" engine. (That could also be the seller's description).

Anyway, as has been the subject on this forum before, I believe that modified cars, besides often being expensive to build, rarely, if ever, return the cost that was spent on its modification. That belief also applies to "clones", "knock-offs", "resto-mods", and "fakey-dos". That is true whether you are building a Hemi-Cuda, a Mustang GT-350, a 911 Carrera RS or a big-block C2 Corvette.
Authenticity counts for much in the upper price realms of desireable cars, which I think is proven by 914/6 values.

Paul

[MDG]

Anyway, as has been the subject on this forum before, I believe that modified cars, besides often being expensive to build, rarely, if ever, return the cost that was spent on its modification. That belief also applies to "clones", "knock-offs", "resto-mods", and "fakey-dos". That is true whether you are building a Hemi-Cuda, a Mustang GT-350, a 911 Carrera RS or a big-block C2 Corvette.
Authenticity counts for much in the upper price realms of desireable cars, which I think is proven by 914/6 values.

Paul

I agree to a point but I think too broad of a brush used here. If you are talking about an "original" survivor car yes, in most cases at auction they will command the greatest interest and dollars.

But if you are comparing a car that has been restored to original vs. one done as a resto-mod then the grey area presents a no-win situation as far as what will be worth more vs. dollars spent to get it there. Doing either with the intent of making a profit is a fools errand. Again, depending on how deep you want to go, you WILL spend more than the car will be worth when it is done whichever way you choose to go.

In fact if you look at auction results over the past 5 or 6 years, some of the American cars you list above it is the resto-mods commanding the big bucks; way, way more than the restored to original car. Like not even in the same town as the ballpark more. The ubiquitous Bullit and Eleanor Mustangs routinely outsell a restored to orignal '67 or '68 fastback. By like double.

Food for thought, and this depends on the level you want to take your cars; I am finally nearing the end of a year and a half of 914 work - doing two cars simultaneously. My '76 3.2 GT style resto-mod and my '73 2.0 restored to original. To do it to the level I want - and I am doing these for my enjoyment, not to sell - the truth is the expense is virtually the same for both. Sourcing out and buying NOS parts for the '73 where originality is the key for me, has been mind boggling expensive. I won't make money on either car but I'll be glad to have both of them in my garage.

[SirAndy]

But if you are comparing a car that has been restored to original vs. one done as a resto-mod then the grey area presents a no-win situation as far as what will be worth more vs. dollars spent to get it there. Doing either with the intent of making a profit is a fools errand. Again, depending on how deep you want to go, you WILL spend more than the car will be worth when it is done whichever way you choose to go.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

There is a point in a 914s life when it is not economical anymore to restore it back to original.

I own two of them ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[Pat Garvey]

But if you are comparing a car that has been restored to original vs. one done as a resto-mod then the grey area presents a no-win situation as far as what will be worth more vs. dollars spent to get it there. Doing either with the intent of making a profit is a fools errand. Again, depending on how deep you want to go, you WILL spend more than the car will be worth when it is done whichever way you choose to go.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

There is a point in a 914s life when it is not economical anymore to restore it back to original.

I own two of them ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Agreed, but it depends on your "want" for the car. Some of us "want" total originality. Some of us (myself included) would love to have both worlds - a bone stock 914 AND modified one. Unfortunately, we must set our financial priorities, make our primary "want" fruition & wait for better times to go forward with the next project.

Referring to the car that Paul brought up originally, and that I read about today, the buyer was pretty badly ripped. Must have wanted it pretty badly. Good luck to him/her.
Pat

[racerbvd]

But if you are comparing a car that has been restored to original vs. one done as a resto-mod then the grey area presents a no-win situation as far as what will be worth more vs. dollars spent to get it there. Doing either with the intent of making a profit is a fools errand. Again, depending on how deep you want to go, you WILL spend more than the car will be worth when it is done whichever way you choose to go.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

There is a point in a 914s life when it is not economical anymore to restore it back to original.

I own two of them ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Agreed, but it depends on your "want" for the car. Some of us "want" total originality. Some of us (myself included) would love to have both worlds - a bone stock 914 AND modified one. Unfortunately, we must set our financial priorities, make our primary "want" fruition & wait for better times to go forward with the next project.

Referring to the car that Paul brought up originally, and that I read about today, the buyer was pretty badly ripped. Must have wanted it pretty badly. Good luck to him/her.
Pat

Well, I found out how hard & much $$$$$ it cost to restore a 914-6 back to stock, but with the limited #s, I feel it was the correct thing to do and in the long run will be worth it, then there is my 74, back dated (including dash) to a 914-6GT, see my Blog to know how over kill I am going with this, as some here know, I got this from a very good friend, who has passed (R.I.P. Phil (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) ) and is my dream car, no way in hell I could ever the money I have invested, but that wasn't a n issue with this car, as I will never sell it.. Then, there is my 76, it was left to me by another very good friend, who also passed from Cancer, a few months after Phil, in 2006 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) .. I had planned on keeing it stock, with the 2.0 Fuchs,, ect. Well, it took a few months before could bring myself to going out to the shop and going through it.

When I opened the trunks, I found the susp that we had built up & had powder coated for it, and a few other bit too.


So in the spirit of Floyd, the 76 will be built back the way he would have finished her..
Will I ever sell any of them, most likely the matching numbers "Six" as what fun is a stock car too clean to enjoy, but the other 2 will be with me until I die..
Point is, we don't build these cars for the money (at least most of us) we do it because we love the cars....

[sixerdon]

Here's another very recent Bonham's auction. (last weekend)

http://www.bonhams.com/usa/auction/19385/lot/719/#

Don

[orange914]

IMHO Tastefully done upgrades that bring a clean 914 to a very high drivable standard are the most enjoyable and cost effective. Unless it's very unique or a six, resto/mod appeal to most... again just my experiance and .02c

[iamchappy]

Honestly, when i built my car the way i wanted it, i never considered what it would be worth compared to what i put into it , i just wanted to do it. People buy stocks hoping to have them become worth more than what they put into it, sometimes it's not so. Some buy houses, dump a ton of money into them making it into what they want, well we all know what happened..........

[sixerdon]

This is the one by Bonham's mentioned in S&EC which took place in June.
Note that it was a '72 and not a '74 as mentioned in the mag. Somebody paid big bucks including premium.

http://www.bonhams.com/usa/auction/19392/lot/370/

Don

[1970 Neun vierzehn]

If you had two identical, moderately rusted, faded, mechanically marginal 1970 914/4s and decided to restore one to OEM condition and the other to a 914/6 GT "homage", I would grant you that you would get way more money for the GT clone when you've finished. Fixing the rust in the pan, the longs, the hell hole, the trunks and providing for a premium paint application is going to cost approximately similar dollars for both cars.

But, locating and purchasing steel flares, a proper 6 motor, GT fuel tank, correct seats and all the sundry, unique bits and pieces to do the "homage" car right plus the additional labor to do the conversion is going to cost noticably more than restoring the way less expensive 4 cyl car.

As Hemmings said, rarely does your vision and that of the buyer match up well enough to recoup your your investment.

Paul

[racerbvd]

Honestly, when i built my car the way i wanted it, i never considered what it would be worth compared to what i put into it , i just wanted to do it. People buy stocks hoping to have them become worth more than what they put into it, sometimes it's not so. Some buy houses, dump a ton of money into them making it into what they want, well we all know what happened..........

It is worth it to us, cause it is what we want!!!

[somd914]

This topic is relative to my recent 914 purchase, my first 914. I found pricing to be difficult given it appears that most 914's have been modified to some degree, so finding comps for price comparison is difficult.

However, originallity is not a major concern to me for a car like this - don't see a market there for many years to come unless it's a 6. I'll take my '73 with an upgraded engine, 911 front end, 5 bolt fuchs, and interior upgrades. I personally appreciate her and enjoy her. I'll continue to "enhance" her in coming years. Will I recoup my money? No. But I could buy a new Boxster and lose $20k in depreciation over the next 4-5 years. That $20k buys an awful lot of upgrades and fun in a 914!

Mine wasn't bought for an investment, she was bought as a hobby and for entertainment. I think many people feel classic cars like ours should be an investment, be original, and gain value. However, if we all restored our cars to concourse cars, supply would outstrip demand and prices would fall.

[laflaur]

Is it new information that you never get you're money back on cars?
I knew going in that I would not get all my money back.
Did it anyway.

[racerbvd]

This topic is relative to my recent 914 purchase, my first 914. I found pricing to be difficult given it appears that most 914's have been modified to some degree, so finding comps for price comparison is difficult.

However, originallity is not a major concern to me for a car like this - don't see a market there for many years to come unless it's a 6. I'll take my '73 with an upgraded engine, 911 front end, 5 bolt fuchs, and interior upgrades. I personally appreciate her and enjoy her. I'll continue to "enhance" her in coming years. Will I recoup my money? No. But I could buy a new Boxster and lose $20k in depreciation over the next 4-5 years. That $20k buys an awful lot of upgrades and fun in a 914!

Mine wasn't bought for an investment, she was bought as a hobby and for entertainment. I think many people feel classic cars like ours should be an investment, be original, and gain value. However, if we all restored our cars to concourse cars, supply would outstrip demand and prices would fall.

Best thing you can do, build her, and enjoy her, that is how you recoup your investment and the changes you are talking about won't hurt the bottom line..
Congrats & welcome to our World (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

[Elliot Cannon]

Hemmings Sports and Exotic Car, did a small article on the Screaming Yellow Zonker awhile back when I tried to sell it at auction. The point of the article was that as much as it was a great car, it is always more difficult to sell a much modified car at auction than a bone stock original in good condition. Having tried to sell my car at three different auctions I'm afraid I have to agree. If I wanted to sell an original 6 (or type IV for that matter) that was in good stock condition I think I would try to sell it in Germany first. I finally sold it (sniff, sob, sniff) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) by advertising in 914 web site classifieds. Every time I bumped the ad to the top I got at least 4 emails. And, NO I didn't re-coup my investment but I never expected to. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
Cheers, Elliot

[somd914]

Many 914 owners/enthusiast I have encountered at C&C's and shows like the mods that have been done and think my future mods will be nice. However, I come across a few who think I should take her back to stock. Why? I enjoy her more this way, and will enjoy her even more in the future with upcoming mods. I wouldn't like the stock car nearly as much.

Last weekend I had a former owner get upset that my PO had tastefully installed a fuel filler door in the hood. Honestly, I didn't think I would care for the setup when I bought the car as the fuel door does break up the lines of the hood, but after several fuelings I like it as have many other 914 folks who have seen it - beats ducking under the hood to fill her up.

Spend the money, make the car someting you will enjoy, don't expect to get it back, and consider it the cost of having fun which it is. If you don't like this thought, try sailing or golf for high cost entertainment with no return on the investment.

[sixerdon]

This is the one by Bonham's mentioned in S&EC which took place in June.
Note that it was a '72 and not a '74 as mentioned in the mag. Somebody paid big bucks including premium.

http://www.bonhams.com/usa/auction/19392/lot/370/

Don

Additional information I found on the vehicle that started this thread,.................. I recognized it as belonging to a guy living to the north of me. He's been trying to sell it for the past year prior to this Bonham's auction in June. His original asking price was $13K and didn't get any sale through ebay, craigslist or other sites, including this one, as I recall. Anyway, here is his spec on the car as he had advertised it.
Don

1972 Porsche 914-4 For Sale

Tangerine (Orange) / Beige interior
Recent paint, seals and carpets
2.0 Liter engine (CJ Serial Number, 2.0L Euro)
Side-shift transmission w/short-shift

I bought the car in Jan 03 and have probably driven it 3,000 miles. The Odometer read a little less than 70,000 miles, and still does. In that time I have replaced/added the following:
• Dual Dellorto DRLA 40 Carburetors
• Pertronixs magnetic points in Bosch mechanical distributor
• Flywheel, clutch and pressure plate, throw out bearing and shaft seals
• Side-shift transmission w/short-shift linkage
• Bursch performance exhaust
• H4 Headlights
• Factory Fog Lights
• Air horns
• Mini Tornado mirrors (2)
• Simpson four-point seatbelts (2) with harness bar
• Triple-cluster instrument
o Oil pressure, oil temperature and fuel gauges
o Low oil pressure, low voltage, low fuel lights
• Flawless dashboard pad
• MOMO suede steering wheel
• Bridgestone Potenza S-03 (205/50 ZR 15) Tires (4) on Fuch-type wheels (5)
• Replaced all metal brake lines, added braided stainless lines
• New Master brake cylinder, brake bias and factory rebuilt calipers (4)
• New brake rotors with performance brake pads(4)
• Rebuilt pedal cluster
• Emergency brake cables
• Front and Rear adjustable stabilizer bars
• Bilstein shock absorbers (4)
• Metal fuel line front to back
• Battery
• Replaced battery tray, left-side outer sill and rear suspension consoles (2)

No radio or speakers
No heater
Odometer not recording

Full factory service manual set and Dellorto Carburetor manual

[1970 Neun vierzehn]

This is the one by Bonham's mentioned in S&EC which took place in June.
Note that it was a '72 and not a '74 as mentioned in the mag. Somebody paid big bucks including premium.

http://www.bonhams.com/usa/auction/19392/lot/370/

Don

Additional information I found on the vehicle that started this thread,.................. I recognized it as belonging to a guy living to the north of me. He's been trying to sell it for the past year prior to this Bonham's auction in June. His original asking price was $13K and didn't get any sale through ebay, craigslist or other sites, including this one, as I recall. Anyway, here is his spec on the car as he had advertised it.
Don

1972 Porsche 914-4 For Sale

Tangerine (Orange) / Beige interior
Recent paint, seals and carpets
2.0 Liter engine (CJ Serial Number, 2.0L Euro)
Side-shift transmission w/short-shift

I bought the car in Jan 03 and have probably driven it 3,000 miles. The Odometer read a little less than 70,000 miles, and still does. In that time I have replaced/added the following:
• Dual Dellorto DRLA 40 Carburetors
• Pertronixs magnetic points in Bosch mechanical distributor
• Flywheel, clutch and pressure plate, throw out bearing and shaft seals
• Side-shift transmission w/short-shift linkage
• Bursch performance exhaust
• H4 Headlights
• Factory Fog Lights
• Air horns
• Mini Tornado mirrors (2)
• Simpson four-point seatbelts (2) with harness bar
• Triple-cluster instrument
o Oil pressure, oil temperature and fuel gauges
o Low oil pressure, low voltage, low fuel lights
• Flawless dashboard pad
• MOMO suede steering wheel
• Bridgestone Potenza S-03 (205/50 ZR 15) Tires (4) on Fuch-type wheels (5)
• Replaced all metal brake lines, added braided stainless lines
• New Master brake cylinder, brake bias and factory rebuilt calipers (4)
• New brake rotors with performance brake pads(4)
• Rebuilt pedal cluster
• Emergency brake cables
• Front and Rear adjustable stabilizer bars
• Bilstein shock absorbers (4)
• Metal fuel line front to back
• Battery
• Replaced battery tray, left-side outer sill and rear suspension consoles (2)

No radio or speakers
No heater
Odometer not recording

Full factory service manual set and Dellorto Carburetor manual

Yes, I would have to say that some money was spent there.

I think the salient point to this whole thread is the quote "...your vision and that of a buyer seldom match up ......(the " well enough to recoup your investment")" part of the quote is not as important. Several years ago when I undertook the lengthy refurbishment of my '70/4, I knew full well that the money spent would never be realized if I ever elect to sell the car. Keeping it as OEM as possible was my target.
The real point of the thread is that just as some of us love/hate the color yellow or orange or black or silver or green or whatever, and would limit our purchase somewhat on color choice, similarly the mods we make to a 914 are going to limit the audience to which the car would appeal to, if it were ever to be offered for sale.

Paul

[DBCooper]

To that I have to ask why would I care? Resale value isn't why I pick a hobby car, or any serious consideration during the time that I own it. If you're choosing 914's as an investment I think you need to speak with a financial adviser who'll set you straight and steer you into stocks, bonds, or something else equally boring. If you own the car for FUN, on the other hand, you can't lose with a 914. But if you choose to own a 914 for fun then why limit yourself to 165 radials? For the benefit of the next owner? Why not go ahead and enjoy it yourself? Without limits. I have more fun with my car than whatever it is I'm giving up in resale value.

For full disclosure I also enjoy seeing other people's cars still wearing their original 165 radials. Couldn't do that myself but I'm happy that others can.