Racing question i have never heard of before, It actually exists and is banned from F1! Options

[tazz9924]

So. I own a baja bug and a popular off road upgrade for it is a cutting/ turning brake. My question is why arnt these used in road racing as an alternative for left foot braking? this would direct braking force torwards the inside wheel(s) and may allow for faster and tighter cornering.

(Edit): I found that mclaren used a system similar to this in 97-98 in F1 and is a system currently employed in modern mclaren road cars. Instead of a grab handle it was a switchable 3rd pedal to the left of the brake pedal (they dont have clutches) Conservative estimates say it was good for .3 seconds a lap! It was banned from F1 on the grounds that it was a 4 wheel steering system. More info can be found here: http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/...e-steer-mclaren

[jmill]

They are already on many drift cars. However, drifting is much slower. Doubt you'll see them on road race cars.

[tazz9924]

They are already on many drift cars. However, drifting is much slower. Doubt you'll see them on road race cars.

correct me if im wrong but i think drift cars use a hydro E-brake so it actuates both rears at the same time

[stanthedog]

Aren't they illegal for road use. I'd think that would translate to the racing world. I could be wrong. Kinda like those steering wheel knobs that used to be popular.

[Mueller]

In real racing you want both hands on the wheel, with the exception of shifting..even the manual shifting has been slowly eliminated in top forms of real racing.

[Cracker]

...it is called "trail-braking" in road course use and it does help rotate the car. The speeds are so much higher (potentially) in a road course car and the driver has OTHER things to do at that time (with their hands).

T

[Mueller]

So. I own a baja bug and a popular off road upgrade for it is a cutting/ turning brake. My question is why arnt these used in road racing as an alternative for left foot braking? this would direct braking force torwards the inside wheel(s) and may allow for faster and tighter cornering.

No, it would make the car slower and possibly more dangerous.

[Mark Henry]

For turning tight corners at slow speed.
My Fiat has them...but of course it's a tractor. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Practically all field tractors have them, they have two brake pedals with a little flip bar to lock them together. Unlock them and you can control one side or the other.

[jmill]

They are already on many drift cars. However, drifting is much slower. Doubt you'll see them on road race cars.

correct me if im wrong but i think drift cars use a hydro E-brake so it actuates both rears at the same time

No idea. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) I see them on rally cars too and those guys are insane and at insane speeds. I would assume it's to initiate a drift.

[6freak]

[quote name='tazz9924' date='Jan 8 2017, 12:51 PM' post='2441969']
off road . explains it all


(IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[sixaddict]

Rally cars use them on really tight turns ....in road course racing turns are not all that tight and you want to keep forward drive as much as possible. ..The heavy rear brake totally upsets the car and goes against the "smooth is fast " theory.

Of course this is like Forest Gump..."and that's all I have to say about that" ......
or --- I have no clue if that makes sense but seems like it to me.

[jmitro]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

not to mention it would be against the rules for sanctioned road racing

[tazz9924]

Rally cars use them on really tight turns ....in road course racing turns are not all that tight and you want to keep forward drive as much as possible. ..The heavy rear brake totally upsets the car and goes against the "smooth is fast " theory.

Of course this is like Forest Gump..."and that's all I have to say about that" ......
or --- I have no clue if that makes sense but seems like it to me.

I see what your saying but wouldnt it be just like a more directed left foot brake when on turn out? it doesn't necessarily need to be tight for left foot braking to be deemed necessary. I would also argue it wouldn't unsettle the car unless you used your Sasquatch arm strength un-sparingly. no more than left foot braking at least. my .02

[tazz9924]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

not to mention it would be against the rules for sanctioned road racing

And that's probably the kicker in my convoluted thought process! Dosent mean evergreen speedway wont let me try it at autocross (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[raynekat]

Easy answer....these work only on the rear wheels correct?

You want the braking on the front to load up the front tires so they do what they are supposed to do...turn.

These rear wheel steering brakes work by locking up a "rear" wheel, not what you ever what for going fast on road racing track. Any momentary loss of traction by any of the 4 wheels translates into lost time.

Bottom line....there is a simple reason professional racing doesn't use these on a track...much slower lap times.

[stugray]

The only use this would have on a road racing car is IF you have an open diff, you could use it as a 'manual LSD'. (way to much to think about while racing)

My BRZ has the electronic version of this.
If the car detects rear wheel spin, it applies the brake on the spinning wheel to provide more power to the wheel that is not slipping.

[ThePaintedMan]

This is the only road racing example that I know of, but not quite what you're describing I think.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McLaren_MP4/12

For me, there's already plenty to do inside a racecar that I can't imagine dynamic braking to influence steering. At least, not while heel-toeing and shifting our old fashioned h-pattern boxes.

[GregAmy]

The (somewhat) quick answer: rear wheel turning brakes are only used in conditions with low lateral grip: ice, sand, dirt, rallying, etc. Its intention is to generate excessive slip angle in the rear tires to get the car to rotate, to slide or "drift", without making the front tires slide. Once you get the vehicle sideways you can open the steering and use the forward grip and engine torque to drive the car toward the center of the corner radius (and thus go around the corner) instead of using tire lateral grip (that you don't have).

This technique in a high lateral grip situation would make the car slower. In this situation, far more energy is wasted in sliding across a high-grip surface than is gained by the technique.

[Cracker]

To piggy back on that excellent explanation - in the most basic form, of course. You rarely see road race cars excessively "loosing lateral traction" while cornering; as in drifting. Not only is "smooth generally the fastest way around a course" SO is maintaining the cars speed through a corner. In fact, this is the skill that separates the men with big balls from those with little ones. Period. Anyone can blast down the straights...stopping properly is a different matter though!

Ironically, the old racing cliche that indirectly ties into this discussion is, "Brakes, who needs those? They only slow you down...) is at play here. While trail braking helps rotate a car more quickly into a corner; it is power down from apex-out; unlike the drifting technique used in off-road cars.

Each car that is properly set up will have a "point" in which is the sweet spot during its rotation - the term that is used in racing is "setting the rear". It is hard to describe but once you have "felt it" - you know how far you can push the car (any further and you will do a loopy-lew)!

BTW: Left foot braking is an acquired skill..I learned to LFB in my Prototype - it is as natural now as anything else I have ever done.

Tony

[ConeDodger]

The spin would be epic at road race speeds... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) if it ever stopped spinning you'd get out and (IMG:style_emoticons/default/barf.gif)