Type-4 Dry Sump System, Any Thoughts, Ideas, Comments? Options

[Britain Smith]

I am toying with the idea of installing a dry sump system on my turbo type-4 conversion in my 912. I have the room to mount a 911-style oil tank in the stock fender location and can run a fender mounted oil cooler up front. I also need a way to keep the turbo properly oiled. Does anyone have any experience with this? How might one plum this system up? Where can I get a dry sump pump for this purpose?

-Britain

[ArtechnikA]

the plumbing is easy. the 911 tank is easy. Aviad used to be the name in multi-stage oil pumps, fairly easy to use a stage to scavenge the turbo output from a small header tank a la 935.

the hard part will be figuring how to drive it -- something like an AC compressor pulley might be possible...

[Mark Henry]

I've seen them and held them but never saw the need for them. Again I'm talking type 1 drag experience. I could see it (maybe) for racing and long sweepers, but a modified windage tray and tuna can would solve that.

My choice would be a type 1 30mm schadek pump with a Berg pressure relief cover. You can't use this on a 914 because of the engine bar mounts, so you would have to check if you can full flow your 912. Even the 26mm Schadek should be fine with the turbo.

[Britain Smith]

I think that my two projects are getting confused....

I want to do the dry sump system on my turbo type-4 motor that is going to be replacing the engine in my 912. The main reason I want to explore the dry sump possibilities is to provide the turbo fresh, cool oil straight from the tank. My thoughts were to use an early 911 oil tank and add extra AN fittings to it to feed the turbo. My question is how do you plum the system to feed the motor? Where does the pick-up go and how does it return to the engine. Do I need a 2-stage or a 3-stage pump? Anyone have any diagrams?

-Britain

[cnavarro]

Britain, I have a dry sump setup from a 914 on the shelf that I can take some pictures of. Pump is there too. I think it might be CB Performance's dry sump pump that fits in the stock pump location.

Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
http://www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance

[Britain Smith]

Great...thanks!

[Mark Henry]

No confusion...IMO I don't think a drysump is necessary.

Why don't you also ask some of your turbo questions over on the forced induction forum, they might be of some help:

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewforum.ph...3ccadc7aa344d3a

[ChrisFoley]

This guy makes a two stage pump that goes in the stock location and fits behind the factory airbox: Europerf Racing
It is based on the Melling high volume pump.
Autocraft Type 1 pumps can be modified for T4 use and have bigger stages than the others (good for all out racing).
The CB two stage pump doesn't fit well with the front engine mount on a 914.

[ArtechnikA]

I want to explore the dry sump possibilities is to provide the turbo fresh, cool oil straight from the tank.

you'll need to provide -pressurised- oil to the turbo. it won't matter if you take this from the main oil gallery or a separate stage of a multi-stage pump.

i think the main advantage is that you can run a separate scavenge stage so that you can run a low-mounted turbo and have a way to get the frothy post-turbo oil foam back up to a place where it can de-aerate. the T-IV block is so darned short that it's hard to find a place above the oil level for the return - and then you're dumping hot oil froth into the sump with the rest of the oil.

[KitCarlson]

Anybody know what the second sump opening is for on the typeIV other than the temperature sensor location? Could it be part of a factory racing addition for dry sump?

[john rogers]

My race car has had a dry sump system since the late 80's for a stroker four for engine longivity mainly. It had a custom sump plate with a dash-12 suction hose going to an Autocraft external pump. The scavange output went to a front mounted oil cooler and the cooler return went through a remote filter to the oil tank. Pressure suction came off the bottom of the oil tank and into engine. Worked great and never starved for oil.

[rhilgers]

http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=189

[ArtechnikA]

http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=189

and you fit that behind a T-IV's fan shroud how, exactly ? or does this presuppose using some kind of upright fan conversion? (lots less silly-looking in Britain's 912 application than a 914 ...)

[Britain Smith]

Using that system from CBperformance, how would the flow be set-up. I would use a 911 oil tank and front mount cooler, but were would the turbo oil line fit in?

-Britain

[ArtechnikA]

Using that system from CBperformance, how would the flow be set-up. I would use a 911 oil tank and front mount cooler, but were would the turbo oil line fit in?

just like it does in a 911 Turbo - you'd supply feed oil from the oil gallery, but you'd have to depend on a gravity drainback for the post-turbo oil.

turbo bearings don't need huge pressure or volume, unless you're using some kind of liquid-cooled center section turbo. an AN-4 is probably more than adequate.

[fiid]

I put my turbo on the line from the engine to the oil pressure sensor (I have the numbered VDO oil pressure sensor.) I cut the line and put a T in and then ran oil to the turbo from there. The turbo I had used a flat-type bearing, which I think requires some pressure to get oil flowing through it.

I have abandoned the project for now. It did run and get oil out to the turbo, but I never figured out the return line end of things - my turbo was mounted at the back of the car, and I couldn't use a drip oil return, which just makes things harder.- scavenger pumps and the lot - part of the reason for the abandonment.

The problem with it is that you lose your oil pressure if the line fails, and all that jazz, but I think you need a pressured feed. It might be necessary to put some kind of regulator in the line for this so that you don't end up starving the engine. Someone with some knowledge please chime in.

I also have a melling high volume oil pimp, and the high pressure piston kit.

CAVEAT EMPTOR - Check this out with someone who actually knows something before you do it. :-)

[Britain Smith]

This is a system from CE Performance in Arizona. I haven't had a chance to contact them yet, but it looks cool. If you have a pump similar to one of these, do you need to use one stage to provide oil to the engine and another for the return to the oil tank or what? Could you use one solely for the turbo oil?

-Britain

(IMG:http://www.cevw.com/images-new/drysumpplumbing1_large.jpg)

[Downunderman]

Britain,

Are you going to use the 2 stage on the left or the 4 stage on the right. If using the 4 stage, which is probably a bit of an overkill, you can use 1 stage for engine oil pressuse, 1 to scavenge the sump, and 1 to scavenge each rocker box. The turbo can be fed off the primary feed for the engine. This is assuming you don't use the inernal standard oil pump. If you go wholly external then you will have to use a remote pressure relief valve or the whole thing will explode.

If you use the 2 stage and use the internal oil pump as the primary feed for the engine you wont have to be concerned about a pressure relief valve, because the standard setup will work fine. The external pump will be scavenge only and you can suck the oil out wherever you like, probably front and rear of sump, or left and right.

[ArtechnikA]

...If using the 4 stage, which is probably a bit of an overkill, you can use 1 stage for engine oil pressuse, 1 to scavenge the sump, and 1 to scavenge each rocker box.

lots of ways to do it, i suppose...

i think i'd use one pair of stages to scavenge the sump and pressurise the mains, and another pair to pressurise and scavenge the turbo. having to mount the turbo high enough to depend on a gravity drainback is a major packaging PITA.

you wouldn't need a separate stage to pressurise the turbo, of course - the main oil gallery will provide all you'd ever need. in which case, i'd use a single pressure stage for everything, one to scavenge the turbo, and two (right and left, probably) to scavenge the case.

per 911, output from the scavenge pumps goes to the filter and then cooler, returning to the tank; pressure pump draws from oil tank.