Paint question, Paint gurus please HELP! Options

[VaccaRabite]

Okay.

So today I repainted my trunk panels. When I painted them the first time I got these little voids. I thought that they were solvent pops at first.

Now I am not so sure, cause I got them again when I re-painted.

Symptom:
Small crater in the paint, the largest being 1/32' in diameter, most of them are smaller. They are nearly perfect circles. No paint seems to want to exist there.

When I got them the first time, these were the corrective actions that I took:
1) I sanded out all the imperfections - wet sand, back down to primer with 400 grit paper.
2) re-shot sandable primer (primer seemed to adhere fine)
3) sanded primer with 400 grit paper till baby butt smooth.
4) cleaned with Eastwood Pre (wax and grease remover)
5) gently wiped down with a fresh tack cloth.

The really tiny ones were filled in with a heavy coat of paint, but there is still a tiny, but visible, depression in the paint.

Whatever it is, it seems like it repels the paint. Most of them seem to be on the targa top, but I have a few of them in the front hood and one on one of the headlamp covers.

I'm stumped. What the heck am I dealing with here? Where ever one of these little voids is, you can see clear down to the primer. My best guess is overspray of some sort of oil or lubricant or something, but I did not spray anything but paint since I sanded and cleaned the panels. I'd like to get them fixed.

Zach

[Rusty]

Try these links:

This PDF file has images:

PPG Troubleshooting PDF

Typical problem descriptions (no pics):

Paint Problem Solver

[slim72914]

I believe they call these fish eyes. PPG makes an additive to prevent them when spraying primer. Not sure if its good for paint too.

[jasons]

Yeah Fish Eyes. Your either getting contaminates in the paint, or your not getting them off the surface.

Are you using good clean hoses? No oil in the lines from oiled air tools? No water in the lines, etc? I assume the eastwood stuff should clean the surface, maybe its not the best thing for the paint product you are shooting.

[thomasotten]

Grease. Some sort of contaminant. I got them when I painted my targa top. Sotimes armor-all is used to shine the targa tops. That oil is still in the surface. The first step BEFORE sanding a panel should be to degrease it. If you don't, sanding it could press the grease into the paint even further.

I would try to clean it like crazy. Rub hard. Then use the pre-cleaner. Also, NEVER NEVER NEVER user or spray WD-40 anywhere near or in your garage while you are preparing panels. It gets everywhere.

[John]

From your description, it sounds like these blemishes are in the exact same spots that they were before?

The primer flows out and sits flat in these locations?

What is under the paint in these locations? Is there filler or is it steel like the rest of the panel?

I read somewhere that some tack cloths may actually contribute to some paint blemishes (fish-eyes included).

These don't really seem to me to sound exactly like fish-eyes. I understand fish-eyes to be depressions in the paint, but not necessarily associated with "holes" in the finish all the way down to the primer. Got any pictures?

To me it does sound like some sort of contamination, but for the same thing to happen at the same spot twice after prep makes me think a potential problem with the substrate (static charge, magnetism, ?????).

Pics may help.

[Rusty]

I thought the description was a little vague.

PPG defines fish-eyes as "Small, crater like holes or indentations in the paint surface, varying in size from pinholes up to 1cm in diameter. Usually the larger craters occur individually, whilst the smaller ones are often found in small densely packed clusters.
Small impurities are often visible in the centre of the crater."

Here is the link I was trying to find earlier... complete with very cool pictures.

http://www.ppg.com/cr-refinish/phase1/frmS...DefectGroup.asp

[sww914]

You need to be sure of several things;
1. You cleaned the surface well with wax, grease, and silicone remover. You wipe it on wet with a rag, and wipe it off while it's still wet with a dry rag. Use those blue "Shop Towels" paper towels. On a targa top, do it twice. The paint on them is a little porous and every DAPO probably put Armor All on it.
2. You're not spraying any WD-40, Armor All, Pam, or anything else that atomizes oil or silicone anywhere near the car, especially after the stuff is sanded, and neither is anyone else.
3. Make certain the crap isn't coming out of your air lines, as mentioned above.

The problem is always oil, wax, grease, or silicone. Usually silicone.
You can bury fisheyes. If you keep putting wet paint on top of them, they will continue to form. You can spray 3-4-5 dry coats over them, let the paint tack up, (about 30 mins) and then continue with wet coats. If they come back, your coats weren't dry enough, you put too few on, or you didn't wait long enough, either between dry coats or before adding more wet coats.
You can use fisheye additive and it will help. Use what's recommended for your paint. Urethanes are picky about what you use, with old paints you could just use Smoothie in everything, but not anymore.
I paint something just about every week, but I don't have any fisheye remover and I haven't had any for a couple of years. I don't usually get any fisheyes because my air is clean and I get the parts clean (chemically as well as physically) before I paint them.

Once, a long time ago, I was painting something in the garage and I got the most horrendous fisheyes between my first & second coats of clear. I couldn't figure out why in the world I'd get them after the sealer, 5 coats of base and one coat of clear were all fine. I found out later that my wife had sprayed
WD-40 on something- inside the house with the windows and doors closed at about that time.
I couldn't believe that the stuff managed to mess up my paint under those conditions, but it did.

[Dr Evil]

The car is slowly rejecting that gay color (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif)

I have had this problem many times. The primer may "cover up" the area, but the solvent/contaminant under the primer still seeps through as it continues to off gas, etc. You need to sand down to your substrate and clean, clean, clean. Part of why painting sucks. (this is assuming your tools are not shooting dirty air)

[eeyore]

Fish eye preventer is good. Clean with a compatible purpose cleaner (like DX-33?). Some people say its just PPG's way of making money by selling normal laquer thinner for 3x more in a blue and white can. However, I'd take the safe bet, rather that risk sanding out fisheyes.

You can also alter your technique. Before I lay down a full layer of paint, I like to mist on a few quick tack coats and let them dry a bit. The theory being that all those little spots serve as little anchors to counteract the surface tension in the paint.

[1bad914]

If they are in the same spot you have a dirty surface, if they are in a different area then you have dirty lines. Are you using a dryer on the wall and one right before the gun, either a snake or one of those orange balls. My first coat is always a lighter tack coat, then I lay the other coats thick. I agree that you can continue to coat it and it will cover. Also, make sure you drain your compressor tank, If I am doing a big job I drain the tank and let it sit for a day or to. Good luck!

[Spoke]

Before I lay down a full layer of paint, I like to mist on a few quick tack coats and let them dry a bit. The theory being that all those little spots serve as little anchors to counteract the surface tension in the paint.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

I usually try to do this too for the same reason. I'm not a paint expert but if paint is going to move away from an impurity, it can't move if it isn't thick enough to flow. I just got a few similar tack cloth issues while painting fenders last night. I have one little swipe mark and a couple of small fish eyes. I did not lay down any tack coats.

I'm going to rattle can paint my targa top and I've used Armor-all many times on it. Guess I'll need some heavy degreasing before painting.

Good luck,
Spoke

[VaccaRabite]

As far as line driers, I have a fliter and water trap at the outlet of the air compressor. I have a smaller in-line filter and water trap at the inlet of the gun, right before the regulator on the gun.

I do not run any sort of oiler on the line, so my line should be oil free.

Tonight when I get home,I am goign to experiment on the headlamp cover. Sand out the paint, feather the edge, clean it and re-spray where the fisheye was. See if it come back or not.

If that works, then I will do that to the other panels.

Zach