Control Arm Bushings - The Final Word?, Who is telling the truth? Options

[PeeGreen 914]

:ook at the Elephant site and see the race that is put on to make it round. I am guessing the needle bearings have the same or similar idea.

Chris is a great racer and developer for our cars but there are others that are just as good as he is and make great parts for our cars (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[bcheney]

How can you tell if you have a Delrin bushing or a Poly bushing? Is there a marking on them of some kind? I have a set of bushings...Two of them say Weltmeister-612 on them and the other two (one is marked with M02557 and the other with M02558). I had them machined by a local machine shop but I dont remember if they were machined in the sleeves or otherwise.

[ChrisFoley]

Brian,
Those are definitely Polygraphite. Weltmeister has never sold Delrin bushings.
The markings you see are on the mold those bushings were CAST in.

Your machine shop probably didn't have much success with machining them since the material has poor properties for tooling.
Cast plastics almost never have good machining properties, partly because the molecular weight is low.
Delrin is a high molecular weight extruded polymer.

[ChrisFoley]

Who has more track time here? I think it pretty clear....

Stiggy,
I appreciate your loyalty and support but quoting my website is unnecessary.

I haven't said my product is better, only as good as.
Each of the top products has its special features and each has its compromises/drawbacks.
Mine may be more difficult to install properly as a DIY project, depending on one's skill level, experience, and tools available.
Buying the bushings by themselves to save money, and installing them the way Poly has been done by most people over the years won't result in a better system.

[iamchappy]

With the final word to be said even if you wanted to go with bears bearing needles on rollers, you would have a hard time finding them, Shrine racing may still have some i
think Mueller is out, but you might be able to cobble together the parts to do it through Pegasus racing and other bearing suppliers. Chris and the Elephant ones are available
so this could help in making you decision easier....

[Gint]

McMark is doing them up if not now, shortly I thought. For the front anyway if memory serves me. Rears later I believe. Mark will correct me if I'm wrong. He should be along here a in a few hours.

[URY914]

Brian, so much for a simple answer.....

[tat2dphreak]

I like how no one even asked if this was for racing. this whole discussion is wasted for a street car.

I Really dont want to spend another $200 if I dont have to.

then don't... these cars have been working fine for 40 years on rubber bushings and plastic aftermarket. if you aren't turning your car into a racer, then 200 can be spent better elsewhere.

all he wants is a set that doesn't squeak, from what his original post said...

my rubber ones do not squeak and are in pretty good shape, even tho they are used. I'm only a street car guy tho

[ericread]

I would trust Elephant racing's research. I have the ply bronze in my car and it feels like a completely different car with them in. I had the rubber and went to the delrin bushings at first. The squeek pissed me off and I went with the poly bronze. I would suggest everyone do that. Easy to install and no squeek. I know it is money you don't want to spend but if you do it right the first time you generally save money in the long run.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

I really like the Elephant poly bronze bushings. As for the squeak from the old bearings, it didn't bother me too much but it drove my passengers crazy...

Eric

[TravisNeff]

Make sure you really need to change out your rubber bushings before taking the plunge. I replaced mine with those crappy poly bushings and I would have been better off leaving my OE rubber ones in place (from a street car perspective).

So at some point I will need to replace my poly units as the squeaking drives me insane.

[Eric_Shea]

Interesting thread. I think the end result may be that "you", the car owner, will have to decide which is right for your car. Here's my thoughts:

Rubber - Nice for a stock ride. I'm not going to get into a battle over which will fall apart etc... you decide.

Poly - BE CAREFUL HERE. The common poly bushings sold under the Weltmeister name are made of a soft 94A compound. These are the only units I DO NOT RECOMMEND using on your 914 or 911. You can tell if you have these units by simply squeezing them in your hand. If they flex they are the soft compound. A thorough search will find pictures from TRE where these have literally torn out front suspension mounts. They distort, they squeak. The other poly is made of 70D compound and they are much, much better. They are inexpensive but you will need to work to have them set-up properly. To do it properly requires a 3x1 sanding drum from McMaster, JB Weld (use a torch if you ever want to remove them) and grease zerks. By using the drum you will get an extremely tight fit on your shaft, which is what you want. If installed properly, these should be squeak free and last a lifetime.

Delrin - CFR is the only place on the planet I know of that does this and has the machinery to do it properly. See their website for details, there's no BS there. It costs more but, a lot of work is involved and... you're not the one doing it this time.

Elephant - The poly sleeve on the poly bronze bushings allows for the slop inside the control arm itself. These generally fit like a glove. Because all arms are not created equal, some shafts bind more than others. This is normal. Once lubricated and once a 2,000+ lb car is settled on them they will be fine. The only criticism I've had in the past has been the small 5x.8 zerks. Chuck says they're fine but I use a 6x1 on all of our installs (picking nits here). I have a full Elephant system on my 911. The feel of the road is amazing. Others will tell you there is no harshness in the ride as the bushings now offer full shock absorber function. While the feel is amazing, there "is" a subtle harshness added to the ride that a street driver may not admire. Imagine you're coming upon a bump in the road, forces at work will transfer this energy to your suspension and to your cars body. If there is a thick piece of rubber between that suspension and the body, there will be a certain amount of dampening performed by that rubber. This is where you need to make a decision. Do you need the racing precision that solid bushings afford or, do you need that awesome Porsche street car ride your car came with? If you purchase Elephants you will not have buyers remorse. They are extremely well made and worth every penny.

FreeMotion - While I have a full set of Elephants on my 911, I have a complete set of FreeMotion bearings on my 914. The FreeMotion products have sleeve's and races to take up the slack caused by imperfect manufacturing of our suspension pieces. Much like Elephant fronts etc. I believe I am one of the blessed ones to have a set of the prototype FreeMotion "rear" sets. I'm not sure about that but, maybe Mark could weigh in on the availability of those. If you've seen the state of my GT project you'll know that I cannot speculate on the ride quality. There are plenty of people here who can. I will assume that, as with the Elephants, that amount of precision will not come without a slight reduction in that "bump" effect I discussed. Again, if you purchase these... you will be a happy camper. The kit comes complete with great instructions and I'm sure the race department in Stuttgart would be proud of your installation.

Bottom line, solid (of any type) vs. the stock type rubber will afford precision for the sake of a small amount of ride quality. Feeling every driveway apron may not bother you... on the other hand, it may.

My personal thoughts on this? Use the Parado Principle; better know as the 80:20 rule. 80% street, go with rubber. 80% race, go with the harder bushing of your choice.

It's your car. It's your choice.

[PeeGreen 914]

Well written as always Eric. I couldn't have said it better. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[Elliot Cannon]

The "final word" is usually the "bottom line". Use the best parts you can afford.

[ericread]

Mr. Shea said it very well.

As for my ride, I would have loved to install the needle bearings, but the price was just too steep. I ended up with the Elephant Poly-bronze bushings, turbo tie-rod and replaced the rubber steering adapter biscuit with a billet aluminum biscuit. That said, I have no rubber in the front end between my tires and the steering wheel (well, not counting the ball joints).

Yes, I do feel the road, but I don't have all that rubber to mush out the steering. And like others have said, the Elephant bushings really smooth out the ride. Besides, when you drive a sports car, isn't feeling the road what it's all about?

Eric Read

[tradisrad]

I've seen people complain about binding with the use of Elephants front poly/bronze bushings. While elephant sells their self aligning kit to make the parts co-linear most people choke on the extra $200 it costs for the kit. I choked on the extra price and then went to Fastenal and bought some self aligning wahsers for $50 (12 sets, 4 rear and 8 front). I then modified the rear mounts to accomidate the self aligning washers. It took a few minutes to install and aligns the control arms. They move freely through their range of motion with no binding.
I have not driven the car yet, but I am looking forward to driving it in the next few weeks.
I am fairly sure these are the washer sets I used, but it would be wise to double check the sizes:
http://www.fastenal.com/web/products/detai...9449&ucst=t
http://www.fastenal.com/web/products/detai...9450&ucst=t

[bcheney]

Can you supply any more detail on how you modified to accomodate for the self aligning washers? I am going to install the bushings and see how they work without going this route first. However, I would like to have more information on what plan B might involve.

Thanks,

Brian

[6freak]

Rolling-bearing-needle-bearing.....Bearings

Tapered roller bearing lol

so can we do a poll ...cause i want to do the bushing and bearing thing this winter and after reading all that i still cant figure out the best product ..price really not an issue ..but then again i dont want to break the bank.....prolly a 50 /50 car.....dang just read that for myself and it was kinda a hijack ...sorry ...but maybe it would help him as well

BACK TO THE SHOW

[SirAndy]

after reading all that i still cant figure out the best product .

I'm rolling on McMark's "FreeMotion" roller bearings ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/thumb3d.gif) Andy

PS: Let's start from the beginning. Which one is better again?

[6freak]

so we have

free motion
poly bronze
stock rubber
delrin

Any other options

[McMark]

Just to clear a few things up:

FreeMotion fronts are available to ship TODAY.
FreeMotion front races are not 'glued in'.
FreeMotion rears are nearing completion. The prototypes needed some beefing up for extreme conditions (fine for 'normal' driving) and I'm waiting for a quote to come back for machining the final necessary parts.

Delrin is a good choice for the price, but IMHO, nothing can beat roller bearings for reduction in friction. The price is higher, but the value bears out over ever expansion crack, railroad, and pothole.