Tangerine Racing Products, Horizontal Fan Cooling System in production Options

[ChrisFoley]

This prototype will be ready for installation in my street car in a few days.


(IMG:http://www.tangerineracing.com/images/EnginePics/TangerineEngineCoolingSystemPrototype01.jpg)

(IMG:http://www.tangerineracing.com/images/EnginePics/TangerineEngineCoolingSystemPrototype02.jpg)

Update: 02/18/10
Pre-production discount price of $1359 in effect through 03/07/10
Paypal accepted at my website. Horizontal Cooling Fan Conversion

[ChrisFoley]

What about alternator cooling ?? Oil filter appears to be relocated , spark plug change ??
... have you any data on oil temps, head temps ??

We're still working on the alternator cooling feature but it is no problem.
Remote oil filter and cooler required.
Spark plugs will be no harder than stock. I just haven't opened the holes up on the shroud yet.
No hard data other than my years of experience on the track competing in SCCA.
Oil temps will depend on how good of an oil cooler system is installed.
Head temps on any mild engine will be fine. It wasn't until I was pushing 100hp/liter that any difficulty arose in that department.

[flipb]

If you reverse the direction of the fan, would you have Chaparralesque grip? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[ChrisFoley]

Don't think that an electric motor driven fan will move enough air.

Look very good Chris. How long and how many race miles do you think you have on this system?

Paul is right. An electric fan will never provide the necessary cooling air. The 914 cooling system relies on air pressure more than shear volume. While the electric fan may put out high volume it isn't capable of building static pressure.

Since 1998 I've logged more than 5000 race track miles with this system installed.

[ChrisFoley]

It ended up having so much power that it would constantly spin off the 90 degree belt from the setup. Looks like you have corrected it by installing TWO pulleys!!!!

Back in 1999, I had one belt come off, resulting in a cooked engine.
Since then, I redesigned the pulleys and used a better belt. At the same time I installed a warning system. The belt has never failed again and the warning system has been cheap insurance that I haven't had to use.

[URY914]

And the belts are much better these days then in years past.

[PeeGreen 914]

Wow (IMG:style_emoticons/default/drooley.gif) You sure do come up with some cool stuff Chris. I can't wait to see it finished in CF

[ottox914]

What about alternator cooling ?? Oil filter appears to be relocated , spark plug change ??
... have you any data on oil temps, head temps ??

We're still working on the alternator cooling feature but it is no problem.
Remote oil filter and cooler required.
Spark plugs will be no harder than stock. I just haven't opened the holes up on the shroud yet.
No hard data other than my years of experience on the track competing in SCCA.
Oil temps will depend on how good of an oil cooler system is installed.
Head temps on any mild engine will be fine. It wasn't until I was pushing 100hp/liter that any difficulty arose in that department.

- Would changing the alternator out to a more modern unit be easier than working out the cooling for the factory unit?

- What do you suggest for remote cooler- size and location?

- Plugs should be no big deal once the holes are opened up.

- This could be a great thing for the 914T... need any additional testers?...

- Would a basic FG shroud be any cheeper/easier than CF?

Cool... very cool.

[ChrisFoley]

- Would changing the alternator out to a more modern unit be easier than working out the cooling for the factory unit?

The stock unit is one of the shortest available and fits very nicely.
Besides, everybody already has one with the correct wiring and connector.
We'll solve the cooling issue and I'm sure it won't be much work.
A smaller pulley would be better though.

- What do you suggest for remote cooler- size and location?

Of course, a front mounted cooler is the best for cool air access.
With a Tangerine Header, a cooler on the passenger side behind the axle is feasible.
For most people a 16-25 row cooler is the best size range, depending on displacement/rpm range.
We will probably offer a cooler kit later this year.

- Plugs should be no big deal once the holes are opened up.

I opened the holes up this evening after I fitted ring thermocouples on the plugs.

- This could be a great thing for the 914T... need any additional testers?...

I need lots of testers, paying testers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
Really, the system is well proven to be very effective.

- Would a basic FG shroud be any cheeper/easier than CF?

I still need to do more research but I don't think the price difference is that great.

Cool... very cool.

Yes indeed. When I first saw the original made by Jay Putnam I knew it was an excellent idea, perhaps his only one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Brando]

Chris if I still had a 914 I would have loved to be a paying tester.

A top-down cooler is ideal for turbocharging applications because the intercooler can be directly on top of the cooling fan. Imagine the intake temp drop with that!

[bdstone914]

NOW, what about just adding an electric fan on top instead of robbing any HP off the motor?

An electric fan costs you just the same amount of power by making the alternator work harder.
Plus, you would still have to figure out how to make it turn in sync with the rpm, otherwise you overcool at low rpm ...

No gain there ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif) Andy

Andy,
There would be gains, or really less power consumption, with electric fans. Yes they use power but considerable less than mechanical fans. You can control the fan speed off of temperature rather than engine speed for better warm up and max cooling only when needed. I work for a company that offers a two speed fan with a 260 watt ( about 1/3 HP) motor and a two speed controler. There are other pulse with modulating controllers that can vary the fan speed. The power consumption of a mechanical increases with the cube ( power of 3) of the RPM.
I recall that the old Corvair fan pulled about 20 hp at 8,000 fan RPM. I believe it was a 12" fan.

Chris,
It you want to try one out I can probably get a free sample.

Bruce

[ChrisFoley]

Chris,
It you want to try one out I can probably get a free sample.

Bruce

Thanks Bruce but I'm not interested in testing an electric fan cooling system. Somebody else already markets one. While it may be of value in an AX situation I really don't believe such a setup can ever work effectively for a street or track car. You can't get something for nothing.
If a mechanical fan requires 10+HP then an electric fan of similar power consumption would be required. The reason for the big difference is that the electric fan blades move air but don't build pressure under load. All the fins on an aircooled engine create substantial backpressure that must be overcome for the cooling air to pass through.

The stock corvair fan was 11" diameter and spun at a significant overdrive vs. the crankshaft.
At 1:1 (9" fan:crank) speed my 1.8L race engine still made 183hp @ 7500rpm with the fan connected. In the dyno room the head temps stayed well below 400F but in the race car they crept up a little further due to vehicle aerodynamic effects.

[ChrisFoley]

My CAD guy gave me this animation the other day.
The idlers and the fan look like they're going the wrong direction because of a frame rate vs rotation speed mismatch.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y-nZKUSZxg

[ChrisFoley]

Here are pics of the latest progress.

[Chris Hamilton]

Andy,
There would be gains, or really less power consumption, with electric fans. Yes they use power but considerable less than mechanical fans. You can control the fan speed off of temperature rather than engine speed for better warm up and max cooling only when needed. I work for a company that offers a two speed fan with a 260 watt ( about 1/3 HP) motor and a two speed controler. There are other pulse with modulating controllers that can vary the fan speed. The power consumption of a mechanical increases with the cube ( power of 3) of the RPM.
I recall that the old Corvair fan pulled about 20 hp at 8,000 fan RPM. I believe it was a 12" fan.

Chris,
It you want to try one out I can probably get a free sample.

Bruce

That sounds cool! Can I get a sample to put on my car? Or at least a link to the manufacturer?

I'm building a shroud with a half dozen triple blade deltas right now but if you have something much more powerful that can be controlled with PWM that'd be even better...

[ericread]

Finally! A 914 hovercraft!!!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol3.gif)

[URY914]

Chris, is the aluminum several pieces you tig'd together and hammered smooth? If so your as good with a hammer as you are with a rod.

[Dr Evil]

Bang on corvair as it is belt driven vs gear driven. Very cool and proven on 6cyl vair motors.

The tension on the belts is not very much. The main reason for throwing belts is having the belts too tight. The vair fans are very light and out of mag alloy so that they do not fight RPM changes. The vair setup does have belt protectors near the pulley and the fan pulley. The alt is set in as one of the 90* pulleys. Here are some pics of mine. Good setup.

[turnaround89]

How much is the cost going to be for this setup?

[lotus_65]

Our kit will include aluminum sheetmetal to seal the engine compartment.

Could you elaborate on this please Chris?
Also, the object here is mainly head temp control, correct?

Thanks -

[ChrisFoley]

Chris, is the aluminum several pieces you tig'd together and hammered smooth? If so your as good with a hammer as you are with a rod.

Yes, I made this shroud from several pieces. I took a pattern off of it that I could cut from one piece and eliminate most of the welding I did. Still not sure if it would be economical though.

How much is the cost going to be for this setup?

I've been working around an estimate between $1500-1600 but I still have to get quotes on machined parts, water jet cutting, and on the shroud.

Could you elaborate on this please Chris?
Also, the object here is mainly head temp control, correct?

You can see some stock sheetmetal in the pictures. The kit will utilize the stock front and rear pieces only. Three aluminum pieces will be provided in the kit - both sides and one that fills the space left by the original fan shroud.
In a street car its important to keep the top and bottom of the engine compartment separated so the carbs and cooling system intake get fresh cool air from above, and to keep the engine compartment cleaner.